So glad the literal antisemites came out on this post to play apologist for ethnically cleansing Israeli Jews ‘back where they came from’ in Europe for the crime of being born in Israel. I’m trying to think of how this differs from the Nazis wanting to deport Jews to Israel, but I’m coming up with a blank.
I guess there must be something substantially different, though, because obviously these brave anti-imperialists would never be antisemites. Even when they advocate for literal fucking genocide based on the very compelling and principled argument of “Israel committed genocide first!” /s
Typical Israeli apologist, dreaming of a hypothetical genocide of Israeli Jews when there’s an actual genocide being committed by the zionists. Do you ever get tired of being a victim?
Sorry that you think genocide is okay so long as it’s Good Genocide, unlike the Bad Genocide Israel is currently committing.
Some of us think genocide is bad, just on principle. Yes, really.
There you go again, making shit up in your head. Makes me think that you might not actually believe those words and just want to distract from the daily murder of innocent Palestinian people by reframing the poor poor Israelis that are suffering on stolen land. What a joke.
I love that ethnic cleansing is being defended in this very thread and your claim is that I’m making up these responses. Like, do you not own a pair of eyes? Or is it just too much fun playing mirror Hasbara?
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All of the people I’ve seen advocating that are talking about the people who were not born in Israel.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
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I’ve always felt that the new Left’s obsession with Israel veils a great deal of unprocessed anti-Semitism, twisted in knots over the rules of identity and when it’s “okay” to have one. In the 60s and up until pretty recently, it was the KKK and John Birch Society that hated Israel. Leftists, like Noam Chomsky, were defenders of Israel.
At its core is the idea that “Jews aren’t victims anymore, but they’re allowed to contribute to the culture and express their identity as former victims of persecution, and that’s wrong.” Muddled up in this belief is all kinds of unpleasantness. Jewish people get to have their cake an eat it too, right? So it’s better to take the side of a population that has been so brutalized and manipulated that they actually believe in martyrdom.
I saw an anti-Israel march in my city not long ago. All these white “anarchist” kids were yelling “Mothers, daughters, all are martyrs!” I see little difference between them and neonazi skinhead punks.
You….really need to expand on what you’ve said because right now you sound like a fucking monster.
I do not trust the anti-Israel sympathies, or should I say “Pro-Palestine” sympathies, of most people who are not directly involved in these places. They do not seem genuine to me. I’m sorry if that makes me sound like a monster. I’ve read Finkelstein and plenty of Chomsky, too. I think Norm is a monster for telling Israelis they should leave, and I think he is making things far worse for Palestinians. There is something very self-serving about the majority of Israeli sentiment I sense from my own political side of the aisle.
I doubt this will be a popular opinion here, and I don’t think there’s much to be gained from having to explain why I feel this way.
I’ve read Finkelstein and plenty of Chomsky, too. I think Norm is a monster for telling Israelis they should leave, and I think he is making things far worse for Palestinians.
I find Chomsky grotesque in his campism, but to my knowledge Chomsky has only ever called for the settlements in Palestinian territory which are illegal by international law to be abandoned.
I agree with you that I have never been to Gaza. I have, however seen plenty of videos of literal hospitals and elementary schools and food lines being bombed and shot at. How can that possibly be dismissed?
I saw an anti-Israel march in my city not long ago. All these white “anarchist” kids were yelling “Mothers, daughters, all are martyrs!” I see little difference between them and neonazi skinhead punks.
Just for being anti-Israel? What?
Do you believe in martyrdom? I mean… What do you think “mothers, daughters, all are martyrs” is supposed to accomplish, other than cosplaying the noble partisan.
“Martyrs” does not inherently mean combatant; on the contrary, in the West martyrdom is more often associated with innocence and being targeted by unprovoked violence. By calling the mothers and daughters who are slaughtered by Israel martyrs, it emphasizes the injustice of their deaths while portraying them as more than victims.
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(Yes I saw your other reply, thank you. I want to branch off of that conversation to address something else you said here.) What makes anti-genocide protesters “anarchist kids”? Did they say as much? Also if you don’t mind for additional context, what region are you living in/describing?
It was a superficial judgment based on the appearance which they consciously chose to represent themselves with. They could be a number of other political ideologies, but it was a lazy lean on the customs of people I know and have known.
Genocide is the intentional, orchestrated elimination of a people based upon their ethnic identity or genetic makeup. If Israel wanted what the nazis wanted, or actually, let’s use a more recent and much older example: What the Turks wanted to happen to the Kurds, there would be no “ceasefires,” no “accords,” no “settlements.” Because if it were actually genocide, Palestinians would not be able to name their children with Palestinian names, they would have no division of land to live on, they would not be permitted to call themselves Palestinians, and, most importantly, they’d all be dead.
The use of the word “genocide” in this issue reinforces my belief that there is a subtle uninterrogated form of anti-Semitism that revolves around this issue. It feeds the current attacks on Jewish students at liberal arts schools in the United States. The word is chosen consciously to compare “what happened to them (the Jews)” with what “they are now doing (to Palestinians).” It is equivocation, and dishonest, and weird.
Weirder still, where are the protests concerning ethnocides and genocides of, say, the Uyghurs? There are one million of them currently residing in concentration camps without being accused of anything (as if it mattered). They are not permitted to grow their beards or express their culture freely. There is a network of cameras across China that can recognize people based upon their ethnic characteristics, which are used to oppress the various minority groups that have not been thoroughly Sinicized.
I sometimes feel like the political ideologies of my country are influenced mainly by determining what you aren’t. As I said, hatred of Israel in the 1960s was a KKK thing. Overall the Left appreciated their liberal policies (they are the only nation in the Middle East/N. African region that permits a Pride Parade, even still) and saw Palestine as fueled by the petroleum monarchs and a horribly backwards form of religion. I read somewhat recently of a Conservative Party minister railing about the injustices of the Chinese against the Uyghurs, ostensibly as part of a wider anti-China platform.
I do not trust in the majority of progressive interest in the Israel-Palestine issue. I think there’s only one solution, which is a one state solution. I am blown away that people on my side of the spectrum consider this “monsterish.”
white “anarchist” kids were yelling “Mothers, daughters, all are martyrs!” I
The alliance between progressives and Islamists is frightening and cursed.
Self styled Anarchists flying the nationalist flag of the Palestinians is another oxymoron.
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Albert Einstein is 100% correct. Read his letter to the NY Times.
Care to post it here?
i think it’s this:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm
To the Editors of the New York Times:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants240 men, women, and childrenand kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948
But do the Israelis WANT to integrate though ?
No. But neither did the American South.
At some point, reality forces the issue.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years, backed by seemingly the majority of the political landscape and the population. Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
“I just want to advocate for genocide! What’s the harm in that, other than some hurt feelings!?”
Okay, Zionist.
Hmm that’s a dumb reply. Please try better.
Man, you’re the one complaining that it’s not acceptable to advocate for genociding people of the wrong ethnicity because Israel did it first. Not really sure I’d trust the opinion of someone who wants to imitate Israel on what’s dumb or not.
Please show me where I have advocated for genocide of anyone or are you simply projecting here?
Also what do you mean with “the wrong ethnicity”?
I don’t want any innocent people to be harmed, no matter what religion or ethnicity. I do however think that the Palestinians at least deserve their land back that was stolen from them through relentless murder. Equally, hold those responsible accountable.
There are countless Jewish people around the world that are against the zionists murderous state of Israel. Are they also wrong?
Please show me where I have advocated for genocide of anyone or are you simply projecting here?
You’re complaining that I’m objecting to people who are advocating for literal genocide against Israel under the justification that advocating racist genocide is just ‘hurting Israeli feelings’ and thus harmless and should be asspatted instead. That’s literally your comment I responded to, genius.
There are countless Jewish people around the world that are against the zionists murderous state of Israel. Are they also wrong?
No. In the fucking title I even allude to a one-state solution, which would be to the horror of most fervent Israel supporters. Sorry that I think that genocide isn’t a Final Solution to the problem of Israel??
He likes to equate decolonization to genocide, to him they are the same thing.
“Decolonization is when you ethnically cleanse civilians for being born the wrong ethnicity. It’s DEFINITELY different from genocide!”
Literal Nazi shit. If you were raised in Israel, you’d be an enthusiastic Zionist murdering Palestinians right now.
Decolonization is when you ethnically cleanse civilians for being born the wrong ethnicity. It’s DEFINITELY different from genocide!"
Lol, you are ridiculously hyperbolic and purposely conflating terms to the point where they don’t mean anything.
Once again you are ignoring the fact that Israel is the one who is dictating policy based on ethnicity. Meaning that it is they who makes it impossible to delineate the ethno from the state.
Would it be better if people just said Israeli nationals? Would it be ethnic cleansing if someone claimed Americans should be kicked out of tribal lands?
Literal Nazi shit. If you were raised in Israel, you’d be an enthusiastic Zionist murdering Palestinians right now.
Projecting much? You’re the one defending colonialism…
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fuck zionists, but they aren’t evil because they are Jewish, they are evil because their are zionists.
that’s like saying fuck white people because there majority of Israelis are white.
and so many loud antizionist voices are Jewish.
if you conflate the two (what Israel wants) you just feed into the Israeli narrative that we all hate the jews and they can only be safe in apartheid genocidal Israel.
which is BS.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Palestine’s population has increased every single one of those 70+ years including the years after the October 7 attacks.
And? What’s your point? Does that make killing of innocents in a stolen land justified? Are you brain damaged?
The point is that it isn’t a Holocaust and that such a lose use of the word is dangerous
Oh sorry, I forgot. Such serious terms can only be used when white people are in danger. Silly me.
Nobody takes you seriously when you max out on the hyperbole.
And now you’re just wildly accusing people of racism for pointing out facts. What is it you’re hoping to accomplish by this?
And now you’re just wildly accusing people of racism for pointing out facts. What is it you’re hoping to accomplish by this?
Smokescreen for their support of genociding Israelis.
Interesting, what term would you use for what’s been happening in Palestine?
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You fucking sound like an Uyghur genocide apologist ghoul.
I’m definitely not. Israel isn’t sterilizing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians like we see happening to the Uyghurs.
Actually, technically, officially
“Israel” (declared may 1948) existed before “Palestine” (declared 1988).
The Jews and the Arabs have both been there for millennia, and the land has been contested since the dawn of recorded history.
It was originally called Canaan in the late Bronze Age (1500 - 1200 BCE).
Then in the Iron Age it was called Judea.
Then the Romans conquered the land and called it Syria Palestina (the land of Syrian “Phillistines”, aka uncultured/uncivilized people.)
Later that evolved into Palestine, which wasn’t codified until 1988, 40 years after the formation of Israel.
Both peoples have been there for millennia, both peoples have been committing atrocities on one another, and both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.
This isn’t a simple black and white issue with good guys and bad guys. Claiming Israel is the bad guys because they’re the current aggressors, is like walking in on a fight and accusing the one who’s currently winning of being the whole reason for the fight in the first place.
You have to know the whole story, unbiased, looking from both sides, to understand a current conflict.
These lands and these people’s need outside arbitration.
They’re incapable of coming to a peaceful solution on their own. They’re too proud and they both feel too entitled and righteous.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
It’s not fair.
If you study history, you will see not much about us is fair.
In recent times we have become abnormally civilized, but only just barely.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
Are you not aware that Iran supports Hamas? Are you pretending October 7 didn’t happen?
I think you’re being very selective in your reading of history.
Iran is trying to put an end to Israel through violence and colonialism. They support violent oppressive factions throughout the middle east.
There have been land for peace deals negotiated in the past, there’s a willingness in Israel to make peace. But Iran gives support to violent factions like Hamas. Hamas has oppressively ruled over Gaza for over a decade and a half with the support of Iran.
Iran also supports the violent Houthi faction in Yemen which rules over a large part of that country (including the capital). The civil war there has been over 300,000 dead. They supported Assad’s regime a brutally oppressive faction that took a civil war with over half a million dead before he was ousted from power.
How many people need to die in this insane theocratic authoritarian regime’s goal to wipe Israel off the map before you’ll consider the possibility that they might be a problem?
How many people need to die in this insane theocratic authoritarian regime’s goal to wipe Israel off the map before you’ll consider the possibility that they might be a problem?
The issue is that the genocide has been going on longer than Iran and Israel have been enemies. And even if it wasn’t older, Iran supporting shitty factions (which, funny enough, are also supported by Israel - Hamas being a Mossad catspaw from the start) does not justify Israeli genocide of Palestinians.
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I’m aware of all of that.
The Arab-Israeli civil war of 1948 (Arabs call it the Nakba) actually started because of the first rejection by the Arabs of a peaceful two state partition.
In the Palestinian mind, right from the start of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the British and the European Jews were seen as an invading force, and the formation of Israel was seen as the entrenchment of that invading force.
Prior to the Balfour Declaration and British backed migration of the European Jews, the Arabs outnumbered the Jews 10 to 1 in that region, and it was unofficially considered to be their lands. They saw the mass migration as an invasion and a threat to their sovereignty and culture, as peoples generally do.
Today only 44% of people living within the territory of Palestine are Arabs, and 52% are Jews.
Based on these numbers it would seem they were right to be afraid.
I think that pre-Israeli zionists literally used the slogan of “Arabs out!” might have contributed to early 20th century suspicions that zionism was a fundamentally invading and colonial ideology. But that’s just me.
literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Either you don’t know what happened during the Holocaust, or you don’t know what happens to Palestinians. These are in not the same, very far from it.
This is Holocaust relativism, bordering on denial.
That said. Palestinians are oppressed and deserve better. Your antisemitic incitement does not help them.
Interesting, what term would you use to describe what has been happening in Palestine and specifically since the last 21 months?
specifically since the last 21 months
This war was triggered by a horrific and unprecedented attack on Israeli civilians on October 7th. A very destructive war in a dense urban setting against an extremely deeply entrenched fanatic enemy hiding among civilians.
There have also been war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity.
If you compare the physical destruction of buildings with the number of killed Palestinians, it becomes pretty obvious that killing the people is not a priority war goal.
There is pretty horrific rhetoric during war times, which has enabled war crimes.
Any other government would have surrendered long ago. Hamas refuses to do so, despite the immense military superiority of the IDF, regardless of the destruction and loss of life it costs.
Your nonsense reply tells me everything I need to know. Thanks for playing.
Idk, any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn’t born there) is a first generation colonizer, surely it’s not anti-semetic to call for that specific subgroup’s relocation, no?
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Over 70% of Israelis were born in Israel.
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Many of the remainder were young at the age of immigration, as most immigrants to Israel were historically not single working folk, but already-established families.
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Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).
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A large proportion of those remaining are from countries which are either legitimately deeply antisemitic or no longer exist (such as emigrants from the Soviet Union).
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Would you advocate that policy of “Go back where you came from!” for the immigrants of any other country on earth?
Saying that Israelis can be expelled ‘back to Europe’ is not only ethnic cleansing, but utterly insane and racist besides.
Also you’re a racist for constantly conflating “Israeli” and “Jewish person” throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Also you’re a racist for constantly conflating “Israeli” and “Jewish person” throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Lord.
You literally have been doing that lmfao
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of “go back where you came from” to Nazi immigrants? Because setting aside the ethnic side, there’s no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren’t hopelessly Zionist.
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of “go back where you came from” to Nazi immigrants?
No, but I would 100% support a policy of “Anyone who the Hague or Israel (ha, my enemy’s enemy) suspects of crimes of any sort gets a free ticket and a trial anytime either of them want to make a check of things.”
Once people have established roots in a place, uprooting them should only be done by proper channels or in the most extreme of circumstances. Germans in Argentina, whatever their ideological background, are not a serious threat to the polity; the polity must deal with them as it would deal with any foreign immigrants, not suddenly decide that “Bad Ethnicity” must be deported.
Much more concerning would have been the dual issues of the Argentinian government letting them in in the first place, and, for that matter, specifically assisting Nazi war criminals in obscuring their identity and escaping justice.
Because setting aside the ethnic side, there’s no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren’t hopelessly Zionist
Zionist in which sense? Zionist in the sense of supporting Israel’s existence, almost certainly - Zionist in the sense of supporting the insane Greater Israel-style politics of modern colonization of Palestine and genocide, less certainly. Israeli immigrants are generally less sanguine about Palestinian genocide than native-born Israelis.
That… is fair enough.
- Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.
Reminder that I asked a question to clarify whether or not my position, which is not the same as the position your meme is criticizing. So I don’t really see why you think it’s necessary to attribute that position to me.
I’ll repeat what I said specifically so you can clarify whether or not MY specific, NUANCED position is also problematic.
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
Clarifying that most Israelis are native-born is absolutely relevant when discussing expulsion of non-native Israelis. People often cloak their ethnic cleansing shitheadery by implying that most Israelis are immigrants, without acknowledging that the reverse is the truth.
Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.
So when Ukraine takes back Crimea and the Donbass, you’re in support of ethnically cleansing anyone who wasn’t born there?
For a more extreme example, would you take this position for the US? There’s still an ongoing situation of unequal treatment of the Native population on reservations; surely you wouldn’t allow filthy colonizers to remain just because they were immigrants?
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip?
No more than it would be fair to expel immigrants of any other nation based on ethnic origin. At most, I would regard extremely recent immigrants (~5 years, maybe) as negotiable in practical terms, if distasteful and a violation of the treatment of human beings equally, rather than trying to apply some insane notion of ethnic correctness to the ‘crime’ of existing.
People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
What would you call people who are invited in by the native-born population of a country which also run its legitimate government? Immigrants, or colonizers?
Okay, that’s great, I already clarified my position beyond that, so I will repeat that in this conversation it is irrelevant! We can keep talking in circles about its relevance to the conversation if you like, but it seems pointless, since again, it is irrelevant to the conversation (beyond you making a point to observers I guess!)
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race? Because if so… then yes? Like are there native citizens being displaced by the government because people of a specific ethnicity want to move there? Educate me pls
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them? It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing. The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
Is the government actively colonizing? There’s your answer.
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race?
Yes, the Russian government has made extensive efforts to displace Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars in the occupied territories in favor of Russian residents.
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
So you’re in favor of deporting all immigrants in America? That seems non-intuitive.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
I’m sorry, are we deporting Palestinian immigrants as well? Yes, based on ethnic origin. Have you not thought out your own position?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them?
Which most immigrants to Israel aren’t doing, as Israel’s internationally recognized territory is overwhelmingly populated by Jewish Israelis and wherein Palestinian natives haven’t lived, largely, for generations.
It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing.
Forcibly deporting people from a region for their ethnicity is literally fucking ethnic cleansing. Just because you think it’s ‘good’ ethnic cleansing, being in response to ‘bad’ ethnic cleansing, doesn’t make it not fucking ethnic cleansing.
The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
“Oh, it’s only a SUBGROUP I want to ethnically cleanse! The GOOD ONES can stay!”
Christ. I guess Israel didn’t engage in ethnic cleansing either, since it let some ‘good Arabs’ stay.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes? The ONLY reason ethnicity comes into it (for the sake of my argument anyway, I understand there are nazis out there that are using this to dogwhistle) is because the state is basing it on ethnicity. If they were actively bringing in Palestinians to displace Palestinians, then yes, we would be relocating those immigrants as well. Of course, that’s not happening, and it makes no sense to even say it.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
Yeah, man, that would be ethnic cleansing. Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Oh… you’re taking problem with that. Because it’s ethnic cleansing to relocate a subgroup of people, that might happen to be of the same ethnicity, based on their specific actions. For sure, man.
To compare the relocation of colonizers to the active, systemic displacement, removal, and eradication of a group of people based on their ethnicity?
You are a bad joke.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
… because people are generally in agreement that mass expulsions of civilians based on ethnicity is difficult to justify morally and nearly impossible to execute humanely?
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
I’m sorry, you’re making the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants to Israel are displacing people from their homes. What’s the difference here, exactly?
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes?
You specified that the people you were counting as colonizers were recent, adult immigrants to Israel from Europe.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
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The people it’s colonizing Palestine with are largely native-born Israelis, not immigrants to Israel.
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Why are you advocating for deporting immigrants to Israel, from Israel, for the crime of other Israelis settling on Palestinian land?
Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Alright, let me quote you:
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers?
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Israel didn’t ‘have’ to happen at that point. Israel ‘happening’ has much more to do with Interwar politics, not WW2 - the vast majority of those present in Israel at the date of its creation were those who engaged in colonization projects during the British Mandate of Palestine, with Jewish survivors of WW2 largely not emigrating until after the state of Israel had been formed.
You can argue that the desire to escape European antisemitism was valid, but Zionism, as a project, was never all that wholesome in practical terms. From the start of the British Mandate after WW1, Zionist settlers were very clear that they envisioned their colonization in terms that European colonizers would have been familiar with - the suppression of the indigenous population under the presumption that they brought ‘real’ and racially superior civilization - even though the post-WW1 world order had become increasingly hostile to such notions even from Christian Europeans.
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Israel at that point had to happen, because nobody really cared about what happens to Jews now, and nobody really cared to bring people like Adolf Eichmann to justice.
So you’re either woefully misinformed or defending the Nakba. Which is it?
This is the innate issue with creating an ethno-state, it makes it difficult to delineate grievances between ethnicity and state. I don’t know what the solution is, but I find it understandable that some people would agree with expulsion.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
I don’t think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
… yes.
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.
I don’t think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
“It’s not racism if they were racist first.”
Great. Fucking fantastic. Glad we’ve learned absolutely nothing.
Fucking insanity.
… yes.
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.
Lol, they are occupying Gaza right now… Just because the immigrants aren’t the ones moving into the Lebensraum doesn’t mean that it isn’t the states goal to expand the population to the point where they demand more living space.
“It’s not racism if they were racist first.”
My dude… My point is that people are critical of an ethno-state, which inherently creates policy based on serving that ethnicity at the expense of others. If you criticize that policy it’s not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism.
Is it racist against Germans to say they shouldn’t have invaded Poland, Or to kick out Germans who immigrated to Austria after they invaded? You aren’t really accounting that these are responses to a nation currently coming genocide, not just people hating an ethnicity for no particular reason.
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
Holy fucking shit, how is it that you are incapable of conceiving any way of punishing a government that isn’t “Ethnic cleansing” or “Genocide via murder”?!
Lol, they are occupying Gaza right now… Just because the immigrants aren’t the ones moving into the Lebensraum doesn’t mean that it isn’t the states goal to expand the population to the point where they demand more living space.
Oh, of course, that completely explains why Israelis have to be ethnically cleansed, thank you for informing me on the moral and practical necessity of genocide when it’s against Bad Ethnicity.
My dude… My point is that people are critical of an ethno-state, which inherently creates policy based on serving that ethnicity at the expense of others. If you criticize that policy it’s not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism.
“People are just being critical of an ethnostate when they advocate for ethnic cleansing and genocide!”
What the ever-loving fuck. You’re sitting here, not just ‘criticizing’ the horrific policies of the Israeli state, but outright advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Israel of Israeli Jews, and you have the gall to claim it’s “not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism”?
Is it racist against Germans to say they shouldn’t have invaded Poland,
Nice try, but that’s not what you’re saying here. If I may quote you in this very same fucking comment after it was pointed out that expelling people based on their ethnicity is actually kind of fucking horrific:
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
Or to kick out Germans who immigrated to Austria after they invaded?
You do realize that the entire ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2 is a massive atrocity that occurred and a subject of intense study by historians and sociologists, right?
No, no, what am I saying? Ethnic cleansing is a good and wholesome response for the crimes of a country. That’s why Nazi Germany was justified in ethnically cleansing Alsace-Lorraine! Oh, fuck, wait, no, that’s bad. That’s why Israel was justified in ethnically cleansing Palestinians! No, wait, that’s bad too. Oh, wait, I have it! That’s why Palestine would be justified in ethnically cleansing Israel! There! GOOD ethnic cleansing to go against all that BAD ethnic cleansing!
You aren’t really accounting that these are responses to a nation currently coming genocide, not just people hating an ethnicity for no particular reason.
“Israel is committing genocide, therefore, it’s okay to genocide Israelis!”
Fucking lunacy.
Holy fucking shit, how is it that you are incapable of conceiving any way of punishing a government that isn’t “Ethnic cleansing” or “Genocide via murder”?!
Funny that your definition of ethnic cleansing is dependent on who’s doing it. Removing an occupying force…ethnic cleansing. Israel occupying Gaza…not an ethnic cleansing. Interesting.
Oh, of course, that completely explains why Israelis have to be ethnically cleansed, thank you for informing me on the moral and practical necessity of genocide when it’s against Bad Ethnicity.
“People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.”
Is what I responded too…your hysterics are not an argument.
People are just being critical of an ethnostate when they advocate for ethnic cleansing and genocide!"
Lol, who is calling for a genocide of Israelis? Your definition of ethnic cleansing is also not on solid ground. Deporting the colonizing forces of a hostile state who is actively doing a genocide isn’t exactly an "ethnic cleansing ".
You’re sitting here, not just ‘criticizing’ the horrific policies of the Israeli state, but outright advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Israel of Israeli Jews, and you have the gall to claim it’s “not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism”?
Again…with the hyperbole. Plus I never even advocated the removal of Jews from Israel. I said I can understand why Palestinians would want that.
You do realize that the entire ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2 is a massive atrocity that occurred and a subject of intense study by historians and sociologists, right?
Again… You are conflating nationality with ethnicity…which is why ethno-states are wrong. Russians didn’t kill Germans because of their ethnicity, they killed Germans because the German nation did so many war crimes during their invasion.
no, what am I saying? Ethnic cleansing is a good and wholesome response for the crimes of a country. That’s why Nazi Germany was justified in ethnically cleansing Alsace-Lorraine! Oh, fuck, wait, no, that’s bad. That’s why Israel was justified in ethnically cleansing Palestinians! No, wait, that’s bad too. Oh, wait, I have it! That’s why Palestine would be justified in ethnically cleansing Israel! There! GOOD ethnic cleansing to go against all that BAD ethnic cleansing!
You’re conflating ethnic cleansing with genocide… And you are utilizing a very dubious definition of ethnic cleansing to begin with.
Israel is committing genocide, therefore, it’s okay to genocide Israelis!"
Oh yeah…because Palestinians wanting Israelis to immigrate back to Europe is the same as a genocide.
Again, I don’t really think you are acknowledging the fact that an apartheid ethno-state is genociding a people who used to own the land that ethno-state is founded upon.
Is really that hard to understand why a Palestinian would want Israelis to go away?
By the way, labeling decolonization as genocide is an age old tactic of those who benefit from colonialism
Funny that your definition of ethnic cleansing is dependent on who’s doing it. Removing an occupying force…ethnic cleansing. Israel occupying Gaza…not an ethnic cleansing. Interesting.
I literally call Israel’s actions genocide several times in this very thread.
Do you need a remedial literacy class or something?
Oh yeah…because Palestinians wanting Israelis to immigrate back to Europe is the same as a genocide.
Jesus fucking Christ. Thank you for demonstrating my point, Mirror Hasbara.
Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi from the Middle East.
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any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn’t born there) is a first generation colonizer
Israel is a country of refugees. They came in many waves fleeing from pogroms in the Russian Empire, persecution in Yemen, the Holocaust, the Farhud in Iraq, and so on. They didn’t come to a land of opportunity to become rich like in the USA. They came looking for a safe place to live, not a persecuted minority for once, a place that would have them. Most did not have any other place to go.
The meme itself is fine.
But shilling a one-state solution with it?
Not cool.
Wait, what’s not cool about a one-state solution?
I’m not opposed to a two-state solution, but generally a one-state solution is considered the more radical option, so I picked it to emphasize that I’m not asking anyone to be pro-Israel.
I don’t know what you thoght when typing up the post, but I do know what I understood when I read it.
A one-state solution is “never” going to work because that’s the current solution. There’s one state of Israel and no state of Palestine. And currently, Israel hasn’t show itself to be all too nice to the palestinians, what with the settling, apartheid and recently as transparent genocide as it gets.
What a one state solution will do is keep the current oppressive power structures. Meaning nothing will truly change. The Israeli press has shown itself to be very anti-Palestinian, and a lot of the population is indoctrinated to think Jews are entitled to settle the land at all costs towards the Palestinians.
There are a lot of examples on YouTube of ‘regular’ Israelis talking of it in the most gruesome and off-putting words imaginable. One might call it cognitive dissonance, but it’s pure indoctrination.
And breaking such indoctrination, cultivated potentialy since the dawn of the sigle state, takes both time and effort.
Effort which is most lukely to succeed were the Palestinians given their own, fully autonomus, UN-recognized and in all aspects equal state free from Israeli control of all types.
Why?
Because Israel has shown itself to be unworthy of having authority over Palestinians.
Systematic oppression needs an equally systematic way of undoing it. Any attepmts at molding the current power structures are unlikely to stop the mistreatment of Palestinians.
The current Israel was and continues to be a one-state solution. A failed solution, that lead to the current genocide. The only way in which such a solution would work is through radical changes to the power structures of the current State, or a new one altogether. One with new laws, a new government, artificially made to overrepresent Palestinians to try to undo the equally artificial, but ingrained in Israeli society opression of them.
Previous such solutions have had a very bad success rate. Such an artificial state is truly like a house of cards. A bad compromise. Neither side is happy for a long time - both feel entitled to more than they get.
So in my humble opinion, one could say that Israel has been given a chance to govern the Palestinians. What they ended up doing is commiting systematic opression a d as of late, a very transparent genocide against them.
If you ask me, any goodwill they’ve gotten to that end was rescinded as of late, and anything less than a two-state solution will be rewarding the perpetrators.
Obligatorily: I’m not saying that Israelis are all genocidal maniacs, or activelly commiting genocide. But the state, their state, is. And such a state cannot reasonably be expected to stop of its own accord or by a finger-wag from the UN. Since the figer-wagging has been done consistently for quite some time now, way before the recent escalations.
A one-state solution is “never” going to work because that’s the current solution.
Again, that’s not what “one-state solution” means. “One-state solution” necessarily implies, for one, that there is a current problem in need of a solution; it would be extremely strange to say “The solution to the problem is the status quo.”
When people say “One-state solution”, they generally mean a single state encompassing all of Palestine and Israel with equal rights.
So, there being one state isn’t a solution?
And how would you solve it?
By not changing the fact that there’s one state non-solution out there?
Of course there’s a problem. But you seem to imply as if the problem is brand-new and no solutions have been tried. Not doing anything (or in this case enough) is a solution. A bad one, for sure, but even not doing anything requires some action.
One state with equal rights will not happen. And how do I know that?
I’m acquainted with the history of the Middle East.
This isn’t the first conflict between Israel and Palestine by a long shot. Israel’s had plenty of ample opportunities to show some humanity, humility and respect for human rights. We all know very well how they answered that call.
As I see it, there are three hypotheitical possibilities (scenarios) with a one state “solution” (as if it’ll be anything new):
a) Nothing changes (obviously). Palestibians keep being opressed. The war and the genocide stops, but in essence, they stay opressed.
b) The Israeli government falls. Palestinians take over. The opressors become the oppressed. Again, nothing fundamentally changes, just the roles swap.
c) A magical “middle-way” coalition wins power. All current laws get rewritten. Palestinians get equal rights, and a way to reclaim lost land. Everyone is happy.
I hope you see how only one of these makes aby sense in the real world. One is impossible, and the other a fucking fairytale (read: equally as impossible).
A two-state solution lets Bibi do what he’s been doing (Fascism Lite), while stopping the genocide and giving Palestinians basic human rights.
Anything else isn’t a realistic solution (read: it’ll never work or quickly break down with the current simulation parameters).
Genocide is the Isreali one state solution.
I would argue that a two-state solution is equally unlikely under the current circumstances.
But my overall point is not whether a one-state solution is viable, only that it is ideal, and I used it in the title to emphasize that I am not arguing against even people who want to completely dissolve the state of Israel as it exists now, but only against the idea that directly making statements that are antisemitic or in favor of ethnic cleansing is what I’m objecting to.
To paraphrase: I wouldn’t argue it’s a viable solution, merely that it’s the ideal one.
Wouldn’t the ideal solution also need to be viable, at the very least?
While I’m also not arguing against the people denying Israel’s right to exist, I am also not arguing for them either.
And about antisemitism: I’d like to think of myself as against all types of totalitarian control and oppression. I’m also very lucky to not have a personal stake in any armed conflict current or past, which I feel gives me relatively unclouded judgement. I’m also very much against genocide, as I view it as a specific form of oppression.
Now, whether or not I am an antisemite largely defends on how you define the word.
I’d like to think that i’m not. However, that assumes the “classic” definition of antisemitism - having something against the Jews by way of religion or ethnicity and discriminating because of that.
I have something (a lot, in fact) against oppression and genocide. If not supporting everything Israel says and does uncritically and without reservation then yes, I am antisemitic. I do not support Israel’s genocide.
Hovewer, I feel this “new” use of the term is only going to harm not only Israel’s interests, but all Jews (Jews themselves inherently, not merely “their interests”). Abusing the term to refer to any dissent from Israeli policy will only remove all “teeth” from the original meaning. Of course, I wouldn’t want that, but that’s what I not only feel will happen, but is already happening, and it’s not because of me.
As always, Israel doesn’t represent all Jews, nor do all Jews constitute Israel. Much less so if we look at Israeli leaders’ official stance and world outlook. Conflating the three is a grave mistake.
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two state solution is never going to work.
Israel is already a one state solution, as it contols all the territory and if commited to apartheid and genocide.
one democratic state is the only viable solution, just end apartheid, expand the racist right of return.
one democratic state is the only viable solution, just end apartheid, expand the racist right of return.
That’s what most people mean when they say one-state solution, though.
yhea, was agreeing.
i dream of returning there, once apartheid is destroyed
Inshallah.
One state with equal rights solution is the least popular among the people living there. Nobody there wants it.
Two states have a much better acceptance.
Just leave the region alone for fucks sake. “Oh I think we could just make palestine secular and it would solve the issue,” “oh lets unite israel and palestine into one state” do nobody hear themselves??
Oh we out here making friends in these comment sections today.
Hating on the Israeli government is bound to attract “the other group who has similar things to say and a bit more”. Now suddenly we are all group into the anti-semite barrel by Israel. Master class false dichotomy there.
Yeah, I don’t know how to solve the issues of two separate families feeling ownership for the same location (fifty years ago, a Palestinian family including several living members was evicted from a home, and an Israeli couple moved in and then died, leaving their property to their children who played no role in taking the property from the Palestinians), but the solution is not to deport all of the Israelis from the region.
My first instinct would be that the government would need to build a LOT of desirable housing and offer a cash incentive to all current and former residents to cede ownership claims to other properties in exchange for the deed to one of the newer properties, but it immediately occurs to me that the wealth difference between the average Palestinian family and the average Israeli family is probably large enough that there would essentially be a self-selection bias. Especially given the fact that poverty and food insecurity reduce our ability to make good financial decisions.
I can’t think of a resolution for that situation that doesn’t involve someone feeling resentful. I’m not saying they have equal claim- but I know that the descendants of settlers are also people, who don’t want to be evicted from the (stolen) houses in which they were raised, and sowing resentment has not helped the region in the past.
I mean, eminent domain exists for this reason, but generally, compensation for stolen property is the norm because of the difficulty of dealing with inheritances and the like several steps removed from the original crime.
Recognizing the validity of residency is not the same as recognizing privilege. “You can stay under the same criteria as anyone else, because we aren’t here to engage in ethnic cleansing” and “Your property is sacrosanct and cannot be touched under any circumstances” are two different concepts, after all.
Oh, there are a thousand ways they could improve their current way of handling it. I just don’t know what the best way would be, though it would definitely involve eminent domain. I guess a lottery system for determining which families get the ancestral home?
I used to take solace in the fact that people smarter than I were in charge of this, so they could do better than that as a solution, but I’m increasingly skeptical that they actually will.
One of the most horrific things to learn in life is that not only are people in power often shitheads, they’re often stupid shitheads as well.
It’s… frustrating when examining policy discussions on an academic level.
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I’m sure that instances like these far outweigh the exact opposite
Palestinians that lived in what is now Israel are very old and very few in number now. Israelis won’t feel safe with having Palestinians moving into their neighbourhoods after what happened on October 7 for at least another generation.
So right of return is dead now. Hamas killed it.
But there are the settlements. Israel has returned land from settlements to Palestinians in the past. They did this in on part of Palestine… Gaza. And there was never any problems from Gaza ever again after that, right? Nope, what happened was a plurality of Palestinians voted for Hamas and once they were in power there weren’t any more elections in Gaza.
The problem mostly stems around poor leadership. Given their past experiences with attempts to exchange land for peace always ending in Palestinians seeing it as a sign of weakness, Israelis turned to Netanyahu who sucks. Palestinians have been convinced they should hate Israelis so they turn to Hamas (fascists who use hatred as tool to gain and maintain power). Fatah is an alternative, but they are corrupt and since it’s easy to blame Israel for everything there’s no incentive to root out corruption.
But there are plenty of Israelis that don’t like Netanyahu. There are plenty of Palestinians that are against Hamas. You just won’t hear about them much on lemmy because people here tend to think of countries as “good guys” and “bad guys” and discussing internal politics of countries goes against the simple narratives people like.
And we should not ignore the problem of Iran’s government. There obviously isn’t going to much of chance for peace if there’s a country in the region that will send rockets to whatever faction is willing to fire them at Israel. Before October 7, we were very close to seeing official recognition of Israel by the Saudis and normalization of relations. This kind of thing isn’t in Iran’s interests and they have proxies that can attack Israel so…
October 7 was obviously beyond previous attacks but it’s been an ongoing conflict between Israel and Iran’s proxies for decades. So how do you convince an authoritarian theocratic regime to chill out on a country their whole propaganda system has villainized for decades? So… once again bad leaders.
So yeah… we could only wish this was just a land for peace kind of problem. That’s hard to solve to be sure, but nothing compared to the complexities involved with the various factions throughout the region.
As long as:
Stolen land is given back, and criminals prosecuted,
Sure.
You want to prosecute criminals responsible for an insane amount of death? Believe it or not, anti-Semitic.
You want justice for people whose lives have been systematically destroyed over 70+ years? Believe it or not, anti-Semitic.
This person actually believes they’re being brilliant suggesting a one state solution but is that really for the benefit of the Palestinian people? Or is it to further push save Israel agenda since everyone can now see their true nature.
So I, a jew who has never even been to Israel, who’s ancestors left centuries ago, am responsible for the state of Israel in any fucking way?
Jewish does not mean Israeli… At all.
Ummm I never said that.
I agree that Jewish does not mean Israeli.
I’m specifically talking about individuals involved in war crimes that they should be held accountable.
Anti semitic remarks are not the same as anti Israeli remarks
I feel nothing when that guy changed “death, death to the IDF”. Well, maybe a mix of amusement and concern. But I have nothing, at all, to do with the IDF and do not support what they do
When you say, in this context, “I’ll cool it with the anti semitic comments when war criminals are brought to justice”, how do you think that feels?
Don’t take this shit casually, anti semitism goes back to biblical times. I’ve experienced it growing up. And now, they’re asking new York Jews what they think of “their” prime minister? They’re “othering” us already
They just built a concentration camp. In America. The Holocaust wasn’t the first time they targeted the Jews as the enemy within. I’ve always reminded my family who start flirting with conservatism… We’re always second. When they run out of people that look different, we’re next
I know what you meant. But that’s not what you said, and words matter
So I, as a jew, who has never even been to Israel, don’t feel threatened by the original comment at all, because I’m not an Israeli settler and haven’t kicked anyone off their property, and thus don’t have to fear having to give anyone their stolen property back.
I’m onboard with that, man. Like I said, I’m down with everything up to the very destruction of the Israeli state. It’s just ethnic cleansing and antisemitism I’m opposed to.
Why not destroy the state and create one where everyone has equal rights? A state anchored in the supremacy of one group is an apartheid state. It’s clear as day which side you’re on supporting such a state.
Why not destroy the state and create one where everyone has equal rights?
That’s literally what a one-state solution is, as supported in the very fucking title. Jesus Christ.
A state anchored in the supremacy of one group is an apartheid state. It’s clear as day which side you’re on supporting such a state.
Me: “Like I said, I’m down with everything up to the very destruction of the Israeli state.”
You: “It’s clear that you support the state of Israel!”
The worst part is, I don’t know if this is trolling. I legitimately believe that you could be at this reading level.
There will be no Israeli state in a world where everyone has equal rights. It will be destroyed if it is for everyone to have equal rights. And a new state will be founded, under a name that is not Israel and doesn’t resemble the apartheid state of Israel. Only then can you actually talk about equal rights for every group of people.
… okay? How does that contradict anything I said, considering that I explicitly mentioned the destruction of the Israeli state as perfectly fine by me?
Or are you going to ignore that and make another inane statement in direct contradiction to the very comment you’re quoting?
There’s no undo button here. You can’t ungenocide by genocide, you can’t ungay a gay and you can’t unvote Trump. We can move only forward
It’s my understanding that it is occurring naturally on its own, anyways?
A few reporting I’ve heard on Israel describes a state filled with dual-citizenship inhabitants that are used to first-world standard and would rather leave the country than deal with inconveniences. I oversimplify here, but who really wants to live in a genocidal state? Whether you’re on board or not with the genocide, it’s still a massive point of friction with neighbors.
Seems unlikely you’ll get more than half of people leaving “naturally.” Or at least, “naturally” is going to look more and more like “coerced” over the years if progress is made.
I’m not sure I understand what you are implying by
if progress is made. Progress on what, exactly?Without “if progress is made,” my statement would have read:
“naturally” is going to look more and more like “coerced,”
but I don’t believe this, since my expectation is that the status quo will remain.
Progress on ending genocide. If there is progress, then those responsible will be leaving or facing their war crimes. Hopefully both.
There’s a significant issue of younger Israelis emigrating from Israel due to that friction, though I don’t know the exact numbers.
It’s a few tens of thousands, not a huge number, but significant for a small country. Also not necessarily younger ones. Families are moving out too. Greece is the first destination at the moment.
I think that the fact that youths and families are leaving is a much worse demographic crisis than it might seem at first glance. It’s literally the future of the country that is leaving.
It’s definitely looking dire for Israel, just on a demographic level.
but who really wants to live in a genocidal state?
About 10 million people apparently.
I hold equal disdain for all Abrahamic Religions.
They are a plague.
Ok… And? The meme is talking about antisemitism not anti-religiosity
I remember some kid in elementary school once said to me “I’m not racist because I hate all races equally!”
He thought he was super clever to come up with that.
Being well is not a type of disease
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This is brain dead thinking that ignores attorcities committed by both secular and atheistic regimes such as:
Stalin and USSR Maoist China Colonial states (France as one example)
And it’s all bad. But I was raised in the Evangelical Church. I read the bibble cover to cover 4 times before I was 15. Was on track to become a preacher. It was the hypocrisy of the church and the people in it that made me into the merrily militant atheist I am today.
Go argue 20th century geopolitical body counts with some poli-sci major. We’re shitting on organized religion right now.
