The same thing happened in the 80s with Japan. The Japanese were no longer making crappy cars but small and very reliable, affordable cars. Detroit was still making rust buckets, obsessing over powerful engines with bodies that rotted out and defects galore. Detroit got beaten up badly (Chrysler had to get a gov bailout) until they cleaned up their act and improved their products. Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/how-detroits-automakers-went-from-kings-of-the-road-to-roadkill/
We still don’t let in the small pickups the rest of the world enjoys.
Did Japan back then pay their assembly line workers the equivalent of $5k USD/year (in today’s dollars) and have nearly no worker protections? Not a rhetorical question; I just don’t know. Seems like Japan had a better standard of living back then compared to Chinese workers now, so I would guess their workers were compensated and treated better.
Not defending US auto corps (or any corp for that matter). The regulatory capture in the US is insane, and workers aren’t treated as well as most of the rest of the first world.
Japan back then had (and still has) an interesting socioeconomic system, a bit similar to samurai clans went cartels, where workers are supposed to work all their life in one place (or close to that), don’t squeal about worker rights and such, but be covered by lots of company-provided social nets and guarantees.
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Back then American industries were just complacent due to insufficient competition, and Japan’s industrial development was a bit of a miracle (that “living in year 2000 since 1980s” joke).
5K/year isn’t exactly poverty when rent is <200, phone data is 20, and you can get pic for 1.50 USD. I too would like them to be treated better, but I dont know if their overall situation is worse than the average american worker making 50K, but spending 24K on rent, 12K on car payments, and 16USD if they eat out.
defects galore
A friend of mine from high school attended the GM Institute and became an engineer for them. One of his first projects was on a team that bought a Lexus and an Infiniti when they first came on the market and took them apart to see how many production defects they had. He said a typical American car at the time (and this was in the '90s after quality had rebounded somewhat from its disastrous nadir) had 300-400 defects. The Infiniti they took apart had 2. The Lexus had 0.
I would kill for a small electric truck… Telo is calling my name, but they don’t have a functioning product yet.
Right there with you on small trucks, the kid and I have been drooling over the Slate even if it is Bezos. I drive a '98 Ranger, and we’ve been kicking around the idea of a Ranger electric conversion.
Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
And it did. Japanese companies maintained a solid portion of the market in the US, a notable lead in quality, and many consumers no longer willing to waste money on crappy overpriced low quality cars from American companies. American cars were forced to get better and they’re better off for it, but they resisted the entire time, just like today.
I don’t disagree with the criticisms of American cars – overpriced, uninspired, unreliable, over-engineered, etc. – but to everyone saying “we should just compete”, do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996? It’s shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Benefits that are common in the U.S., even in non-union shops, like retirement plans, PTO, worker’s comp, and overtime pay are rare. So, yeah, things can be made much cheaper if you are willing to feed your workforce into the grinder.
but to everyone saying “we should just compete”, do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996?
I get what you are saying, but sometimes I think we should in a way, or at least we should get republicans exposed to it, so they can live their hogwash ideas of free markets.
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It won’t be them living the reality though, it will be their subordinates and employees. The same ones already being crushed to death by production metrics, stagnation of wages and inflation. The people involved in these decision making processes are too well shielded from the actual consequences, beyond maybe driving past and seeing the ruins of what used to be towns/cities/neighbourhoods destroyed by the free market and social policies.
Have you heard of 996? It’s shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week
So a typical American teacher’s schedule?
So we should then let American oligarchs drive American workers to the same but slower? because that is what has happened so far
That is certainly their wet dream, now that they can’t easily just move their manufacturing to China and reap all of the benefits like they could 70s - 90s.
Exactly, which is why I’m left scratching my head why the US wants to bring manufacturing back to the US. We’re much better of growing the well-paying jobs where our education systems can compete favorably vs bringing back jobs that compete with low-paying jobs…
where our education systems can compete favorably
LOL are you sure about that?
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-highest-literacy-rates-in-the-world.html
China ranks higher than the USA in literacy rates
Sure, but the US has a lot of well-educated people (e.g. see the Education Index), as well as a lot of opportunities for well-educated people to get in-demand jobs that pay well.
Literacy rates are interesting, but they don’t translate to well-paying jobs like education attainment rates.
Sure, but the US has a lot of well-educated people (e.g. see the Education Index), as well as a lot of opportunities for well-educated people to get in-demand jobs that pay well.
There are more Indian Engineers in the USA than American ones… and Trump is destroying all of it
The way things are going for you, nobody with a half a choice would decide to migrate to the USA for work
I mean, what is the reason those Indian engineers chose the US over India?
and Trump is destroying all of it
The way things are going for you, nobody with a half a choice would decide to migrate to the USA for work
Adjust to your new reality pal
Right, and that’s completely brain-dead. We should be wanting to attract more talent, because more people able to take high-end jobs usually ends up creating more high-end jobs. We want more immigrant engineers, doctors, etc, because that encourages greater investment since the labor pool is deeper.
But no, we’ll instead block cheap imports and encourage more blue-collar work, and if we take that too far, we’ll end up in a similar situation as we did back in the Great Depression when demand just evaporates.
We should let developing countries develop and focus on what developed countries are better at: innovation. Attract top talent and keep investment dollars flowing so the R&D jobs stay.
LOL losers, your education is shit compared to Chinese.
You’ve got nothing to offer to the world.Hold on, in advanced education here in my area of the states, almost half the population of students in classes I see are of Chinese or Indian backgrounds and most are here on foreign visas.
If the education is so shit, why are there so many foreign students studying here and paying insane amounts of money to do so.
I’d think enrollment rates would be a severe lagging indicator of education quality. Institutions could likely coast on reputation for quite some time after education quality tanks. Inertia is powerful, and some could even knowingly decide to go to poor educational institutions just for the status it still gives among peers and in their community.
That said, I have no first hand experience with US higher education, and wouldn’t know what the quality really is, just saying that enrollment rates probably aren’t a great indicator of it.
True, I would argue though that after a certain amount of time, nobody even cares about the quality, it’s the university name on the degree that is truly important.
You can go anywhere on the planet even decades from now and say you’re from Harvard (take your pick) and you’ll be regarded as a knowledge god even if you were the last in the class to graduate.
Educational quality isn’t everything for getting into a good career, it’s the reputation, and that is what schools in the US (and a few abroad) have in spades.
‘Chinese or Indian backgrounds’ so not Chinese.
China leads in 95% of STEM and they’re only getting better and widening the gap.
The US has a handful of good Ivy league institutions (invariably using foreign professors and braindrain), the general level is mediocre at best.Yup and paying insane amounts of money to get in, too.
wow what an argument.
I bet you never went there, it showsApologies if English isn’t your first language it’s called reading between the lines.
Ill draw it out for you: If people would pay that much (yes insane) money to go to “shit” and mediocre institutions here in the states, what does it say about the options they have locally?
I’m not sure I see a connection between the working conditions, and the quality of the car. I don’t think anyone is advocating for adopting those bad conditions, but they also seem unrelated to the quality of design, and parts that go into it. That purely seems like a question of paying for good high-quality parts, and not skimping out on the design phase.
And that’s exactly what is coming to the US, since they think workers rights and unions are the problem.
LOL what workers rights do you clowns in the US have?
Not an American, but it’s worth saying that despite their labour market’s galling shortfalls, they don’t have a culture of 12 hour days for 6 days per week. Many work much less, and those who do pull those kinds of hours are typically tradesmen/women who make pretty good bank. Those types of jobs are being systematically eliminated by corporations, but I digress.
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PSA @Bloomcole@lemmy.world is a troll.
PSA this InternetCitizen2 is a troll.
Askfor a source and this clown gives you this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47934513
LOL
I will strongly disagree with “over engineered”. Why a car company with all their money and bailouts that they can’t compete with Apple/Android on touchscreen features and responsiveness is the whole reason why Chinese cars will kill American car companies. Chinese cars support Android auto even when Google play services isn’t even available in China (last I checked).
Okay, I’ll concede that point to you. U.S. carmakers suck at software. And, even on the hardware, they’re resistant to change and slow to innovate.
Software is the answer to many of the mechanical issues too though. Granted, the physical engineering is definitely over engineered, but would they really need to have 6 different taillight frames when LEDs can be multicolor and just tuned with software for each market? I also see zero reason why manufacturers can’t start from a base and tweak for different market configurations. You also see car companies complain about complex regulation, but then in this day and age when east Asia can make you anything, that’s not an excuse I’m willing to be fed. I fucking hate Elmo like everyone else here, but why the hell is the Model Y the most popular car in the world. None of the other companies want to copy Tesla? They don’t want to compete? We’ve gotten to the point where it’s ludicrous that they’re not competing.
So then why do so many US companies have the CSRs in places overseas ? And manufacturing overseas ?
Why did so many US companies decide to utilize those working conditions for labor for US companies ?
Capitalism is all about competition unless it’s not.
Former GM Executive: BYD cars are better and cheaper than American. If we let BYD into the U.S. Market, we wouldn’t be able to be greedy and enshitify our products any more, which would end up destroying american car manufacturers. FTFY.
P.S. Actually the average american would be benefited from that
Well, nearly half a million mostly union jobs would also be lost, causing a minor recession at the very least. Even if the jobs partially come back in the form of BYD plants, they probably wouldn’t be union jobs.
Lmao, Chinese shills are actual news now? Fucking low as it gets.
So Canada, how are they?
We can’t buy Chinese EV’s in Canada thanks to the 100% tariff imposed by the GoC. I wish they’d get rid of the tariff. Our cheapest EV option right now is the Fiat 500e and that starts at over $30,000.
I guarantee u US pressured Canada into not allowing byd
Meanwhile, instead of trying to compete they cripple all EV advancement to make a quick buck on fossil fuel.
Bring Your Drink.
I don’t give two cents for the american auto brands but spare me the drama: try and make a proper car.
Looking at Ford: try importing a few models from the european line and offer it in the states. Small, economic, somewhat reliable, fuel efficient cars.
Stellantis has a slew of models that could be brought into the american market. They make good cars.
And I’m willing to bet GM as a few models they build and market overseas that would be guaranteed sucesses.
Uh, to be clear, I don’t think Michael Dunne is advocating against China in this context. He worked in the Chinese auto sector for decades. He isn’t an alarmist, he’s their salesman.
Not enough Americans will buy small euro cars. Do you seriously think they wouldn’t just do that if they could justify the cost of switching off a f150 assembly line to make a small car they would. Ford and Chevy both had a ton of small cars throughout the years but the sales aren’t there anymore.
Must be a pricing issue.
Ford stopped making cars because they can’t compete with the current crop of cars coming from Japan/Korea and Europe regardless of how much money they throw at the problem. They have their niche with trucks and SUVs and are happy to stay there. China builds cars using massive government subsidies, slave labor, and local resources that aren’t available to anyone else in the world which is why I think it’s right to fight against them because it’s impossible to compete against them just like a small local grocery store can’t compete against Walmart.
You’d have an argument if legacy manufacturers were trying. We could talk about support if they were willing. They don’t want it. They’ve already given up
By “legacy manufacturers” you mean every major auto manufacturer in the world that isn’t based in China?Nobody else is selling new cars for as little as $4k because other countries aren’t using slave labor in mines and factory floors. It’s impossible to compete against that unless you engage in it yourself.
Yet Chinese cars that meet US standards are quite a bit more than that. Where such vehicles are sold in developed markets, they are more like €30-40k
By “legacy manufacturers” I mean those who are stuck on internal combustion engines, and focusing on large trucks and luxury trims.
Average new car price in the US has greatly outpaced inflation and is currently almost $50k, closing in on a full year gross average income. Most people can’t afford that. For that rice you get old technology engine, old technology transmission, same features we’ve had for years.
Yet a replacement for my Subaru is much cheaper, only a little over what I paid nine years ago. It has safety features, electronics, and transmission more innovative than us made cars costing twice as much. Many more people can afford this vehicle, and it’s similar in price to what Chinese cars are selling for in Europe.
We don’t need to compete with $4k cars. We need to compete with cars affordable on average salaries, with new features and unique capabilities.
While the transition to electric vehicles has been politicized, it’s coming and it’s inexorable. “Legacy manufacturers” are those avoiding that change
China builds cars using massive government subsidies, slave labor, and local resources that aren’t available to anyone else in the world
Why are Japanese and Korean cars also better/cheaper than American cars then?
Slave labor
Citation needed
Massive government subsidies
The US doesn’t massively subsidise auto-makers?
But yeah china bad
Why are Japanese and Korean cars also better/cheaper than American cars then?
They’re not cheaper than American cars. Go price some out.
Citation needed
The US doesn’t massively subsidise auto-makers?
China subsidizes Chinese companies. The US gives subsidies to manufacturers from all over the world via tax credits to buyers.
China builds cars using massive government subsidies
The federal government ended the the EV subsidy a few years ago.
slave labor
lmao. We know what slavery looks like, you can see it in the cotton fields outside Angola Prison, rows of enslaved people, and overseer on a horse, all behind barbed wire. In Xinjiang I saw farmers driving combine harvesters in roadside fields.
local resources that arent available
You’re getting closer. Through 1 and 5 year plans, the CPC uses SoEs (and sometimes just asks private companies “nicely”) to ensure the foundational inputs, steel, rubber, chips, college graduates, etc are all available to industry at the specific price point and volume that competing private firms need to produce say, 100m EVs or a million more apartments.
Any country can do a little central planning to make sure private industry has what it needs, but this only works if you’re able to take action against companies that exploit the system.
The federal government ended the the EV subsidy a few years ago.
Buyers of any EV not just American EVs.
lmao. We know what slavery looks like, you can see it in the cotton fields outside Angola Prison, rows of enslaved people, and overseer on a horse, all behind barbed wire.
I’m glad you find slavery so comical.
Were these inmates enslaved for their religious beliefs being different than the official party line? We they imprisoned for not wanting to be controlled by a dictatorship? No. No they weren’t.
Through 1 and 5 year plans, the CPC uses SoEs (and sometimes just asks private companies “nicely”) to ensure the foundational inputs, steel, rubber, chips, college graduates, etc are all available to industry at the specific price point and volume that competing private firms need to produce say, 100m EV or a million more apartments.
Gee, it sure sounds like you’re listing even more slavery than I mentioned. Imagine Trump declaring that every college grad needs to make themselves available to build a border wall.
Any country can do a little central planning to make sure private industry has what it needs, but this only works if you’re able to take action against companies that exploit the system.
The only exploitation mentioned here is the government exploiting the people. It seems your argument is based on your warped belief that if the US is committing atrocities than it’s okay for everyone else to do so, yet your examples are in stark contrast to what’s happening here. Your views are frankly quite disgusting and proof of how absurd the Chinese government’s propaganda arm is.
Buyers of any EV not just American EVs.
I was talking about china, their federal govt ended ev subsidies in 2022. I suspect some city and provincial level govts still do various types of subsidies.
We they imprisoned for not wanting to be controlled by a dictatorship?
Bro are you trying to justify slavery in the US? You dont have to do that to criticize China. But you have to have to learn about its actual problems, not just accept any silly stories western media comes up with. Try visiting some time, its incredibley cheap, you can rent out decent sized apartments for 15/night in most cities, theres also sleeper trains, combine transport and 1 nights lodging, and food is often <2usd/meal.
Imagine Trump declaring that every college grad needs to make themselves available to build a border wall.
That’s not how that works at all, they simply invest more into educating people into a particular field to ensure there will be enough people with the required skills in a particular area.
How did you even misinterpret my post like that?
The average new truck costs 50% more. Every small car they sell is a lost truck sale.
I’m not convinced it’s lack of sales. Trucks are the most profitable to manufacture but sales vary by region and some parts of the country are much more interested in smaller cars, but they ceded that market to Japanese manufacturers
It’s not they they can’t make them or that the sales aren’t there but that trucks are the easy route. They’re more profitable per unit and easier sell in some areas.
Part of this is also sleazy dealerships. Trucks have by far the biggest incentives so sleazy dealerships can get people excited about the “deal” they get over list price
You are wrong. American manufacturers are captured by the oil conglomerates to sell fuel. That’s why you have giant behemoths barrelling down the highways. F150s have almost doubled in size over the last two decades.
Ok👍
We will put that on their headstone.
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What Ford European line? They discontinued the Mondeo and their minivans. Now it’s hatch or crappy SUV. Or Mustang. Oh wait. Focus is end of life too now. It’s mustang or crappy crossover SUVs only.
That’s fine.
First the enshittified the food
Then the health care
Then every consumer product
Finally they enshittified the nation itself
Before that they enshitified the labor movement and unions via red scare tactics so there was less resistance to the enshitification process
Where free market? It will regulate itself /s
It will. It really does regulate itself, no /s needed.
Except that happens via some businesses going bankrupt and some adjusting.
And either it’s free enough for monopolies to crash, or regulated enough for monopolies to be killed, or both.
If it’s neither, then you have today’s tech industry.
EDIT: And here the fears are that big companies will go down with their shareholders whining and their political cronies suffering and so on. Whether you want free market or literal socialism, the main problem is in separating private narrow interests from the state machine.
Domestic US cars can’t compete with foreign cars. We’ve known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Look no further than Kei trucks being illegal.
Our overengineered, over priced, unnecessarily complicated crap just can’t compete with simple transport vehicles because they aren’t made as a tool to serve a purpose. Everyone wants to make a Corolla into a Cadillac and sell it for Cadillac prices.
Domestic US cars can’t compete with foreign cars. We’ve known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Growing up in the 90s in Wisconsin, all the conservatives around me always talked shit about foreign cars.
I can’t comprehend how they justified it. But I also knew nothing about cars.
It was only back in ~2016 that I realized how much building a car is similar to building a computer. Supply chains, common parts, designs made to fit common “cases”. Etc etc.
Hmmm. I think US cars can absolutely compete. Here is the problem. Foreign manufacturers make cars that people want to buy. American manufacturers make cars that they want to sell. These two things are not the same.
Makes me think of Dell.
I want Ford Escorts, Geo Metros, VW Rabbits. I want a small, uncomplicated, economy shitbox. A small cheap car that my broke ass can fix when it breaks. And no car company that makes cars in this country makes that anymore.
Right? The only thing on the market for EVs in the US right now is “luxury” crossovers and trucks. What people really want is an electric civic hatchback.
Mourning the loss of the Saturn in the world.
Maybe the USA should heavily invest in the industry of the USA, just like China does, in order to keep up? No, then USian companies would have oversight & have to meet expectations, and we all know that they wouldn’t want that.
I hate that the US is like this. People would EASILY pay more for American if the quality was there. But ffs they don’t even try anymore. They just make slop and expect us to pay more for it.
Which sucks because I did use to think that “Made in the USA” meant better quality.
Were you born in 1960 or something? That hasn’t been true for 50+ years
That would require companies roll profits back into development and their employees instead of pocketing it all, schemes like stock buybacks and wall st traders.
Also labor price is unmatched. Nobody would work for the wage they give to children in China, so you can’t really go that much cheaper while not sacrificing safety.
Not saying Chinese cars are that well made.
Like we don’t have child labor here in the good ol’ USA.
That’s true, but we could subsidize the cost of labor too. People make a living wage, but the company pays less than that because government covers the difference.
China has compulsory education for children just like America. There’s no child labor in China.
They pay adult workers less in China, but these yuan has 7x buying power than the dollar in China
That’s what Chinese propagandists want you to think, there are way more people living in (borderline) poverty (per capita) than in the US.
Social media is being fed with a slice of mainland China, but anything beyond that is people struggling to keep ends meet.
They’re being pretty ruthless about grabbing all the world’s resources to make them as well.
No the rest of the world has been sleeping when China silently bought all the mines and harbors in the past decades.
If our CEOs and business leaders are supposedly the world’s best, why didn’t they spent their capital shutting China down instead of their lavish lifestyles and payouts for their wealthy stockholders? I guess they aren’t as good at running businesses as they claim to be.
When the only goal by law is maximize profits, the motivation tends to favor minimizing cost. Change the rules, and enforce a new set of values. Only then will the situation improve.
That and the fact that these people aren’t patriots. They’re looters. They don’t believe in America per se. They believe in the economic system that advantages them and disadvantages others. It’s just that simple. America is no longer a land of opportunity. Perpetual poverty is their goal. Keeping people down is the point.
I have to concede that i believe you might be right about that, sadly.
China is performing a new colonialism. Exploiting poor countries for their cheap resources.
While the rest of the world is trying to steer away from it because it is so horrible. So please, don’t praise China for it.
You don’t understand colonialism much. They aren’t taking anything by force like the rest of the west did for centuries.
They are doing business, there is a difference.
Very few children work in china right now, Chinese workers even have 5 days of vacation a year by law.
That’s 5 more than the US…
There were probably more children working on farms in the US than in china, and I remember something about Florida wanting to reinstate child labour again?
Yes, there may not be child labor. But in places we cannot see, there are still black industry chains. A brick factory was exposed some time ago. They let some people with low IQ or disabilities work. They were not given masks, and the air was full of dust. They may work more than ten hours a day or even more. What is the difference between this and slavery? I just want to give this example to illustrate that there are still many black-hearted factories in society, and there is also the possibility of employing child labor. In China, young people who have not studied will choose to work in factories, but they must be at least 16 years old. If they are younger, they will not be hired. Back to the issue of BYD, although we are proud that it can be recognized by the world as a Chinese brand, and many people in China also buy it. But recently there have been some news that they blindly work overtime within the company, and have meetings after get off work, etc. Someone exposed the chat records within the company. We are all ordinary people. We just want to fight for our rights. Even if it is a big company, as long as it exploits people, we must oppose it.
But recently there have been some news that they blindly work overtime within the company, and have meetings after get off work, etc.
Lol, managers are Tesla are contracted for 80hr work weeks…
Even if it is a big company, as long as it exploits people, we must oppose it.
Agreed! Fuck em all!
Yes but they are trying to better themselves, it’s a slow process, but there is progress. And they came a long way since the 70’s.
Countries like America are going backwards. At this rate the USA is a worse country for the working class than China in 20 years, if not already.
I agree with this. No country has ever been like China, which has grown from the founding of the People’s Republic of China in 1949 to the world’s second largest economy. This is all the joint efforts of the people and the government. But we are not like our parents’ generation, who were satisfied even with low salaries, and always had a smile on their faces, often saying that they were working to build a new China. We are in our twenties now, but our bodies are already in our thirties or forties. We stay up late every day and have to work overtime, and we don’t like working. We refuse to work overtime for any reason, work in bad weather, and give ourselves very low salaries. This is not for the motherland but for the capitalists who seek personal gain.
We still have a question, why do we work so hard when we have achieved what we have now? We envy people in Europe, who have easy work. Every time we take a holiday, we have to make up for it with more working days. You often say that Chinese people are hardworking, but the younger generation does not want to suffer unnecessary hardships. We realize that we come to this world to enjoy life, not to spend the best decades of our lives working.
I think it’s about being content with what you have. Not always wanting more and bigger and better. I have a comfortable salary, nothing too much, loads of people earn way more, but i can pay my mortgage and all other costs, don’t have to worry about losing my job. And still have enough money left to spend on nice things.
I don’t have to save up loads of money for medical bills or other unfortunate events. I can just easily live my life.
That having said I’m still fed up with the daily grind, so I’m selling the house now to retire early somewhere in Spain or Italy, hopefully going off grid somewhere in the mountains enjoying peace and quiet and nature, embracing my inner hermit.
I also want to save money to buy a house in our village. Most of us came to the city from the countryside, but I don’t have enough money. I don’t think I am not ungrateful, but the salary of the company is indeed lower than the industry average. That’s why I think so. Your life seems wonderful — I truly wish you all the best.
This is the slavery they are refrencing i think.
BYD did get caught using slave labor.
https://apnews.com/article/brazil-slave-labor-china-car-factory-byd-991c5670eefdd564fd465648b77b3869
Tariffs be damned, I will not buy an American brand car. They’ve been mediocre my whole life and it’s always been easier to source parts for Hondas and Toyotas. I’m not sure how repairable any EV is, but I doubt American brands will top the charts of value in repairability in my lifetime
