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Screenshot of a Tumblr post by nongunktional:
when i first heard about the male loneliness epidemic i was like oh yeah close camaraderie and bonding between men is often discouraged in favor of competition or, if not discouraged, at least filtered through a lens of individualism that precludes deep connections. and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid) to which i say skill issue
to all the men out there not getting laid: try less hard to get laid and try more hard to be an enjoyable and relaxing presence
Be an actual person. Have empathy. Have sympathy. Stop listening to Rogan, Peterson, stop doing Wim Hof baths, stop taking T when you don’t need it - focus on life, see nature, see the destruction of climate change, stop wanting to “get yours” and enjoy money and material goods in this life without caring about what impact these choices have to those who follow. Talk to women as peers and not sex objects. Join groups where the focus is not sex or angry fight club bullshit and meet people and get to know them slowly. Go to third spaces like coffee shops or local events - get out of your room and step away from the keyboard. This has become very hard for people. And FFS delete TikTok and Reddit.
So many people have become introverted and focus on hate and allow their homes, apartments, and lives to wither in benign neglect as they go deeper down the redpill rabbit hole. See someone. Go to therapy. Get the medications you need not the ones you want (T, stims, PEDs) - exception being if you actually have ADHD then stims might be appropriate but many men who want these meds do not have low T they do not have ADHD they have profound mood disorders and depression.
Unfortunately, in addition to being discouraged from camaraderie and bonding, many boys and young men are also discouraged from ever developing the emotional security needed to see, or outwardly acknowledge that they are lonely and suffering from their lack of connections to others beyond sex.
They are instead taught that any form of vulnerability (like acknowledging their unmet need for connection) is weakness they should be ashamed of because it’s unbecoming of a man
We really do men and boys a huge disservice :(. Sometimes you hear the idea that we should “teach men not to rape, rather than teach women to protect themselves”, but I’ve never heard anyone talk about how in practice what that would look like, is raising emotionally healthy and secure, interpersonally competent boys, who are equipped to handle difficult emotional situations and the hormones that will show up as teenagers.
Not everything comes down to how men are taught. These men made bad decisions for their cultural and interpersonal growth, and until they stop making those bad decisions, they’re unfuckable, and that’s good.
There being causes for someone’s cruelty doesn’t change their responsibility for it, but understanding those causes is vital if you wish to do anything about the fact that it is a persistent societal issue.
I don’t think ill socialized, emotionally unwell, harmful people should be fuckable, I think that we need to recognize that they are ill socialized, and emotionally unwell, if we’d like there to be fewer harmful people in the future.
I don’t have any problem recognizing that, my solution is to tell them they made bad decisions and need to man up.
I…simply don’t know what to make of this. I’m a guy who finds himself thinking about the male loneliness epidemic a lot, and never in terms of finding a romantic/sexual partner. It’s always about solid platonic bonds outside of that and kin, and factors that make those harder to find and maintain these days.
Is this just a shitpost and I’m too stupid to get the joke?
I mean it also does mean the first thing tho no?
depends on your circles. in feminist and leftist circles, it usually means the first
but most men outside of those circles use it just to mean “im not getting the dates i am ENTITLED to 😡”
Oh, so it’s just the deliberate misunderstanding of a nuanced term, like what they did with toxic masculinity.
No hate OP but I hope you find better friends someday.
I don’t know who gave you that idea, but it’s incorrect
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She has a PHD
wat.
I know. PhD —> YES
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Actively wanting to date someone less intelligent than oneself feels like predatorial behaviour.
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I haven’t got along well with any of the women with PHDs I’ve known but it wasn’t a very large sample size for me to write them off as a whole. If I ran into too many more that had the same personality type as the ones I met I might consider it though because they were frustrating to be around. It wasn’t that they were smarter than me, it was that they wouldn’t even listen to me on subjects I was more knowledgeable about.
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I can’t believe people are downvoting you, I totally heard something similar about some guys who don’t like dating women who make more money than they do… It’s just kinda funny to see “PhD” sticking out like that…
And then, on the other hand, are women who don’t like dating men who don’t make more money than they do: https://nypost.com/2019/09/25/women-are-struggling-to-find-men-who-make-as-much-money-as-they-do/
She has higher education -> She earns more -> “She can’t be earning more than me, I’m supposed to provide for the household!!!”
I assume it’s something along those lines?
Perhaps it’s a self worth thing. If she’s making more than you, what reason does she need to keep you around if someone else comes along?
Most who have pursued a PhD, and all who attain it, are the lost ones.
These poor souls live only a half life now. He was right to fear her.
“She has spent many years pursuing one small insignificant thing. Surely she will not give up on me any sooner!”
e: the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. wouldn’t even the manliest man want an advisor who is smarter than he? What Arthur does not have his Merlin? What Corleone does not have his consigliere?
We have walked through the valley of insanity, bashed our heads on the walls of frustration only to seek the next valley, the next wall for we thought we glimpsed enlightenment only a decade ago and have dreamed of it since. Sayeth not whether one draws close or hath traversed a false path. Half a life! Bah! A whole life and more is demanded and others too drawn in, burn thy candle from every end lest thou be cursed with an eternal postdoc and irrelevance.
PhD=permanent head damage lol.
She has kids
I understand this perspective only if someone wants to remain childfree; it’s impossible to compromise on having kids or not, you either do or you don’t
If it’s just because he only wants his own biological kids, I’m less sympathetic
Depends on the specific circumstances, but i feel like it can be just as much of an issue, if you want children and don’t even care if they are biologically related to you.
Depending on how much the other parent of ones stepchildren is involved in their lives and their age, taking on a parenting role might not be wanted or even allowed. So you might have children living in your house, but won’t ever have a complete parental relationship with them. You will always have that additional relationship that needs to be build around, whether that be vacations or where you live.
That’s fair - I suppose there is more complexity & nuance for those situations than I initially thought about
Honestly, though, that sounds like an avoidant attachment style. He desperately wants intimacy, but it scares the bejeezus out of him, so he unconsciously finds a way to sandbag every potential connection.
Andrew Tate and Ben Shapiro say it’s spot on.
And you listen to them to figure out what’s correct and what isn’t?
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You got that backwards. Feminist and lefty leaning circles routinely dismiss the first as the second which is partly responsible for pushing young men further right.
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I’ve only rarely heard it used as a shorthand for “I/we/you can’t get laid”. I’ve always interpreted it to mean the first thing. OP isn’t wrong about the second though, honestly. It is a skill issue.
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Right, it’s very early and I rarely (if ever) have a sexual appetite, so Imma need clarification: how is getting laid not a skill issue? It is my understanding that if people want it enough, they find ways to change themselves or their circumstances to make it happen.
Just like how if people want to be billionaires enough, they find ways to change themselves or their circumstances to make it happen. People only have partial control over who they are and the circumstances they’re in, and the changes they’re able to make don’t always make a difference here.
Sure, there are a minority of people who have legitimate physical disabilities that make it difficult for them to get laid, or impossible to have sex at all. I was under the impression that we were discussing the general case, though. I’m not going to prefix every comment I make with a statement about the exceptions when I’m speaking casually.
It makes conversation awkward and difficult to follow, because you have to dig through the throat-clearing and ass-covering to figure out what the person is trying to say. If you want to discuss those exceptions, feel free to bring them up, but if you feel that I’m ableist for refusing to pad out all my comments with performative acknowledgements to satisfy your asinine sense of morality, then I don’t know what to tell you. Well, actually, I guess I do: “No”.
I’m tired of this bullshit attitude. It contributes to the very issues it diminishes. Men are allowed to have problems without being incels.
It’s not all men’s fault, but there are things you can do increase your chances. If your problem is that you never shower, then who is going to date you?
This is peak
“Well if you dont want to be homeless you should get a job”
Energy.
No, it’s more of “If you want to increase the probability of being in a relationship, you can work on yourself.” energy.
maybe that’s what you were intending to convey, but that is not at all what comes across.
How could I have been more clear?
“If you don’t want to be homeless just get a job to get money and then rent a place to live”
See how that’s overly reductive to the point of it being a useless thing to add?
I am not saying you WILL get a partner if you work on yourself. I am saying it will increase the possibility of getting a partner if you work on yourself. I am also not saying that getting a partner is completely within your control. There are societal factors that make it hard these days to get a partner.
The problem with “If you don’t want to be homeless just get a job to get money and then rent a place to live” is that it implies you will get a place to live if you get a job. Which is not true.
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Ok, what is the emotional problem?
For example, if you easily get upset and attack other people for little reason, then who is going to date you?
If it is that you get sad sometimes, lots of people would date you.
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Fascinating, you seem to be telling me there is a problem with my though process, but instead of just telling me specifically what it is, you choose to insult me instead of answering my basic questions.
Is this the emotional problem you have?
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I have nuance, I have not claimed there were only two emotions. I gave an example of only two emotions. I know there are more than two. I just decided not to write them all out because they are uncountably many of them. That is also why I asked you, what specific emotional problem we are dealing with. So that we could get specific.
That isn’t what people mean by it. Loneliness means loneliness.
Imagine what would happen if somebody said this about women. Are you lonely, ladies? Have you tried being enjoyable and relaxing? And you should smile more!
But if they stop trying to get laid: they also wont get laid because they’ll… not go out and socialize. They’ll probably stay home in their comfortable bubble, play video games, watch youtube or anime or whatever, eat junk food, and jork it. Fall back into a comfy ritual. Catch 22.
And then they’ll look at social media, experience FOMO when it seems like everyone else is fucking or in a happy relationship, get stars in their eyes thinking maybe there is a chance to not be forever alone. Go out and try again and fall flat on their face socially again as they desperately and obviously try to get laid and reek of social ineptitude. And the self loathing is reinforced another notch towards suicidality/blackpilling.
Or they avoid flaring up that sense of loneliness and horniness by just shutting off from socializing (online or offline) entirely. Can’t experience fomo if you try to forget other people exist. But then of course they’ll get cabin fever and start hallucinating the hat man.
Crackpot theory of my own: I also think some of these men, considering how much they complain about how hard it is being men, are not particularly attached to being men at all. If it were convenient and safe and they could ensure they were hot/decent looking at the end of it they’d probably transition into being a girl to just not be lonely anymore. Basically, they’re “conditional eggs” or at least agender. If it becomes medically trivial to become a hot girl that’s what a lot of them would transition to. There was a thing within the incel crowd called “trans-maxxing”. While obviously transitioning with current technology and social acceptance probably wont make their lives easier (despite the transmaxxing manifesto claiming it would) there might be a point in the future where it would. Medical technology is advancing at a pretty crazy rate.
I do wonder what the social gender-divide fabric in that case would look like. What if say, a significant portion of existing men gave up on being men (but where not dysphoric trans, just desperate incels willing to throw away their identity for any intimacy through advanced medical transition). Most transwomen end up being straight once they transition. Either because they were always attracted to men on some level or because there is a significant chance HRT induces a change in who they’re attracted to. If the medical transition technology was advanced enough, it’d probably be possible to increase that probability by demand. This would shift the ratio of hetero women available vs hetero men available. Lower pressure to compete as men since you can just “join the other team” and there would intrinsically be more straight women available vs straight men.
Of course, this would likely upset traditionalists and conservatives. And it’d make TERFs feel vindicated “See! Men just want to possess women’s bodies for sex!” or something.
Brain computer interface haptics + VR/AR or Robot Waifus are probably more likely arrive before trivial “hot girl” transition is possible though and probably more likely to attract more forever-alones & incels than transition. Still a fun thought experiment IMO.
Your rant got it wrong in the first paragraph. People can socialize with or without hitting on others. Ah well, better luck next time!
My autistic rant started out longer and with more context. I cut it down and perhaps too aggressively. I was mainly talking about guys who specifically are less inclined to socialize than to stay home. Which is clearly a lot of people in general, not just hetero-guys.
That is, some hetero men generally only go out with a specific goal or reason to go out and socialize outside of socializing itself because they don’t find that on its own naturally a good enough reason, other than maintaining basic sanity/avoiding cabin fever.
Generally speaking hetero women have different requirements that don’t necessitate consistent socialization or even social skills so if they’re naturally a home-body and barely get out this probably wont be an issue for them dating-wise. If a woman is having issues dating, the advice given is almost never “you need to touch grass more”.
My own context: These days I do enjoy socializing for its own sake. Maybe a little too much considering how expensive it can be… However, I am an autistic guy and I used to think I was straight. I generally spent most of my early adult life staying home playing video games, working, and not otherwise socializing at all for like 5 years of my life like some kind of hermit. Thinking for that things would just work out magically for some reason in terms of romantic relationships for me. So I kind of have some understanding of this particular mentality. I only really got into socializing and “touching grass” originally to find a woman. If I had not had that goal originally I probably would have stayed predominately a loner. Its fortunate that I ended up enjoying being a socialite for its own sake anyway, but not every guy does.
Genuinely, who keeps posting shit like this on here? I keep seeing posts such as this one and it’s honestly pushing me away from Lemmy. Why spend time on a platform that hates me? If being a man who didn’t date (because of social anxiety, btw, not that you’d care, since clearly men are by default fascists, according to some comments here) is a sin, let us know on the front page, so that me and others like myself can avoid this place.
A lot of comments are, thankfully, calling this shitty behaviour out. But then I look at the post itself, which has 696 upvotes and 166 downvotes, and I’m like… I’m not wanted here.
I don’t want to come across as a mysogynist or a misanthrope but this “It’s your fault that you’re lonely because you’re a trash human that nobody wants to sleep with” infuriates me, because I get that shit enough from my own head without it coming from outside as well.
I don’t want to just sleep with someone, I want to be able to comfortably enjoy my time with people I like and then maybe meet someone likeminded enough to build a relationship with.
I have a few friends, and spend time with them whenever I can, but 99% of my time is spent working or at home recovering from work.
I know there’s the whole “You have to get out there and socialise.” and “Get a hobby and you’ll meet new people.” But how does a single man even approach people without coming across as weird or creepy?
For obvious reasons I should probably clarify that I’m aware my brain doesn’t work like regular people’s do, and am probably doing the same shit as the old "people online; ‘Having throw pillows makes you part of the bourgeoisie’ / People irl; ‘Hey man how’s it going?’ " tweet, but god damn if it isn’t hard to have the confidence to meet people irl when all you see is things like the ‘bear in a forest’ trope and news stories about violent abusers reinforcing negative self bias.
Who knows. Maybe I just need to throw my nightmare rectangle off a cliff and buy a phone that only does 4 things, text, call, tell the time and play snake.
Wait, what? I thought it was about camaraderie as well. I mean, yeah, I wish I was getting laid but I’d honestly rather have a community of people around me who provide mutual support to each other.
It’s not just about getting laid, but there are of course incels that make it all about that.
Yeah, I don’t know what the tumblr user in the screenshot is talking about. That’s just not what people mean when they talk about the male loneliness epidemic. Seems like they just want to put others down while dishing out useless, hollow advice …“be enjoyable”… lmao wow they solved it, great thanks.
Misandry is sadly pretty common.
Turns out “leftist” take-generators are not immune to making up bullshit to mock & deride for social clout
If it’s a conversation about 3rd spaces and a lack of opportunities for IRL social interaction in modern society, I think it’s more apt and more productive to just call it a loneliness epidemic. People who are not cis-men have the same problems of not being able to access affordable, pleasant places to socialize in their communities. Calling it the “male” loneliness epidemic just leads to animosity and division where there should be solidarity.
I mean, the specifically-male loneliness epidemic is a symptom of the patriarchy. Patriarchal societies pretty much define “male” as someone who can’t talk about their feelings. Which is, again, pretty much the definition of the specifically-male loneliness epidemic.
Males are hardly allowed to talk about their struggles, so they frequently struggle with mental health problems on top of that. Feminism, a.k.a. solidarity, is the only way to solve this.
no, make loneliness epidemic is exactly what’s described in the first post. societal norms mostly hinder men from forming meaningful friendships with other men, and women as well. they’re discouraged from expressing feelings (maybe other than aggressive ones) and being vulnerable. i don’t know how you can form any relationships without doing either. and turns out you really can’t. hence a lot of men feel lonely.
I mean, the answer is that it is both. Like, not having close friends sucks. And not getting laid sucks. And both are valid and legitimate things to complain about.
Like, honestly, the “skill issue” take is super toxic. It’s basically the same as telling a poor person that not being rich is a skill issue. The lack of understanding and compassion for peoples’ legitimate problems will only radicalize them further.
It’s not both because “not getting laid” has nothing to do with the male loneliness epidemic and is not what people mean when they talk about it
So it’s misnamed?
What do we call the epidemic where males are lonely in general? We … are discussing that very real problem affecting the minority sex, right?
Right?
What do we call the epidemic where males are lonely in general?
The male loneliness epidemic
the men who won’t man up need to be told to man up, especially if they tried to man up by imitating a child predator fascist.
That language will get you nowhere fast. Given that this post is meant to highlight toxic masculinity and its negative repercussions, “manning up” is the furthest thing from what they should do. Redefining what it means to be strong is closer
“redefining what it means to be strong” is stupid
maybe reconnecting with strength and disparaging weak conceptions of strength
I get you. Some of these boys need to be told to get out there and get scared. Everyone wants to huddle in their comfort zone, and to hell with anything or anyone that drags them out. That’s a toxic black hole. If you’re not experiencing some discomfort and fear, you’re not living life.
Had to break myself away from that black hole today. Went out to my camp. Ah fuck me it sucks out there in the summer. You gotta bathe in bug spray, and reapply constantly. Thought I would stroke out several times. Got some walking and shooting in, got some work done, came home and showered, feel great. Imagine if I had sat at this keyboard all day talking to you fuckers. Downward spiral.
Bravery is being scared and doing it anyway. Be brave.
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Good lord are you worked up with assumptions! I say again, young men need to get off the coach and get out their comfort zones. This is a thing anyone can do. You don’t need 2 acres of swamp, you can go walk till you drop, talk to a girl, go somewhere you’re leery of, anything that scares you will do. We can’t experience bravery without fear, and we can’t live a full life without bravery. Anything less is merely waiting to die, and no one deserves that.
I’m not blaming these men, and if we’re making assumptions, that smells like victim mentality. Fuck all that. As I said:
these boys need to be told
How to encourage them to get out and purposefully be uncomfortable? I have no ideas. But it has to happen or we lose a generation to ennui, depression and reclusive dweebs. Again, downward spiral. That’s a hella gravity well to escape.
As active as I am, been fighting it for a year since I lost my job. Young guy across the street and I were tight a couple of years back. Now he sits and plays video games all day, growing fatter every time I see him, zero social life. What am I doing? Chatting with you people. I’m certainly not helping him. Best get off my ass and eat my own dog food. Charity starts at home they say! :)
And don’t for one fucking second lecture me on privilege. I understood and internalized the fact of my luck and status since the 90s, since long before society at large started talking about the concept. You been alive that long? How many stories you want where I felt my privileges in my very guts? I am well fucking aware, thank you for your concern.
You are way out of line and owe me an apology. That’s not a thing I say online, but you have wronged me, put me in boxes I don’t fit in or deserve.
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(Can’t edit my own posts)
Just texted the guy. Nah. He just jumped in a game with some people. See what I mean?! He’s getting fatter and more antisocial by day by day. He’s in his comfort zone, totally unbothered. I’m not baggin’ on gaming, but outside a part-time jobs, that’s all he does!
And by dismissing their very real issues as a trivial matter not worthy of even discussing, you’ve now pushed them into the arms of people who make false promises and exploit them.
Congrats, you shot yourself in the foot.
I’m not saying that punishing politically toxic men is trivial, I’m saying it’s worth doing. You can’t make a man change by pandering to him, you have to actually communicate with them directly, or they’ll tune you out.
What you’re doing is not communicating with them. You’re preemptively dismissing them as your enemy and then acting surprised when they walk towards those who are acting welcoming.
“Not immediately insulting them over their voiced concerns” isn’t pandering…
I cannot fucking wait for the day Lemmy ships the “blocking an instance removes its users from comment threads” feature.
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What is this place anyhow? I get pushback on .world for telling feminists that men’s problems won’t be fixed if they understand the patriarchy harder, and here people are defensive of the notion that politics made some men really shitty.
Did a bunch of lonely men end up here instead of lemmy world?
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You are making the mistake of anthropomorphising communities. There are no singular trains of thought here. There are just people of many sorts posting messages for others to read. Full stop.
Yeah ok but you are not immune from having a local culture sorry
leftists of ALL sorts (which is its own entire topic of how freaking diverse that is),
so is it like the subset of leftists that isn’t outright commie?
You seem to be using politics as a cudgel against men instead of attempting to understand the social forces that are creating this problem in the first place.
yes, because using the cudgel is preferable to endlessly theorizing
You can pretend to not understand all you want, but your ignorance won’t be tolerated for long here.
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the problem isn’t the good people on .world.
the problem is the endless horde of dipshits on .world who need to do a lot more detox from shithole social media like reddit, and stop spewing their ignorance into every comment section they infest in the meantime.
since they won’t stop doing that shit at anywhere near the rate necessary for me to enjoy & derive value from this place, I will be removing them from my default experience the instant that option becomes available to me.
it’s on the good people of .world to either help their compatriots self-improve, or find a less shitty instance. because when it comes right down to it, there are a hell of a lot of good people not on .world for me to talk to, and that’s plenty. the ones who stay indefinitely on a shitty instance are not irreplaceable. not by a long shot.
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I think you’re funny, spewing your impotent frustration. At least I actually want men to man up.
I feel like this type of reply to the male loneliness epidemic (or y’know just the loneliness epidemic, since loneliness has been on the rise independent of gender) really does not give a shit about the people that experience loneliness by reducing them to the most horrible and loud of subset of them.
Sure, there are incels that will twist and turn every societal tragedy into why they are victims and deserve to keep hating women. But by listening to them and reducing the entire problem to hahaha, the women haters are getting what they deserve, you are just hurting everyone else.
The internet gives everyone mental health issues, especially adolescents and especially women.
It does so largely because it distracts away our attention from our natural environment, and also because the internet is largely very toxic, if one considers social media platforms like Instagram and Xitter. Both of these effects lead to a surge in anxiety, depression and related diseases.
It is no wonder then, that these adolescents and young adults don’t want to engage in relationships anymore. That leads to a loss of self-esteem (because being attractive to others is a large source of self-esteem), which troubles the mental health condition even more.
The best way forward would be if large parts of the society ditch social media altogether. Xitter is becoming a propaganda instrument more and more, day by day, and there’s simply no use exposing a large part of the society, which has no critical thinking skills, to the non-stop mind-manipulating brainwashing machine that large parts of the internet nowadays are.
Tips to get laid. Yeah, that seems right.
