Fear of this is why I have been hoarding any computer that runs for a long time now
Thinkcentre club stand uup !
I think I have 5 😐 or 6 IDK
I don’t know how useful 32 bit old computers are, if they run cryptography software they aren’t completely useless
Mine are all “modern” ones, I think even the old E8300 was 64 bits and that one I left a loong time ago. Do you keep all your computers?
All the ones that run and a couple that don’t. Some are in my mom’s basement though
Any idea what you want to use them for, or is it “just in case”?
At minimum they can be crypto terminals or distraction free writing/eBook reading machines. But mostly just in case it’s all we have left to use.
For phones Google gets to decide, as an os maker. For PCs, there are multiple OSses so hardware manufacturers get to decide.
I personally don’t see AMD or Intel doing that anytime soon, and if they do, at least Arm and Risc-V are making some good progress in the desktop space
Microsoft tried to get things going that way with “s”, but it didn’t take
I bought my wife a cheap Lenovo laptop when she needed something that supported the “Lockdown” browser (no Linux support). Didn’t realize when I bought it what “S” meant (and I’ve been an IT guy for over 20 years). Got it home and realized what was up, it couldn’t even run that browser because it had to be the preconfigured browser from her school and not one from the MS store. An evening of fiddling and a $3 grey market key and she was back onto a normal Windows install.
On the plus side the laptop was only like $299 or $399 and really isn’t too bad on the hardware side.
And Android phones will get a workaround to fuck over Google, the genie is out of the bottle. This shit will never happen to “all PCs”
The workaround has been around for as long as Android has been around: use AOSP and don’t use gapps
I kind of expect this to happen with Apple’s rumored $600 macbook. Since they just updated ipadOS to run like a locked down version of macOS. I bet they will offer this cheap mac with the same locked down OS since it will have a “phone” processor in it.
They will say this was a compromise needed, but the majority of people will not care. After a few years, the macs that are open will get more and more expensive.
I’m guessing Windows will slowly start to move in thie direction, but I think they will try to push their remote computers thing to accomplish this.
I’m not sure about bootloaders being locked, I am guessing there will always be something that is unlocked and able to run linux though. It is needed for servers and stuff like that. In the worst case, someone will likely sell arm or risc-v powered boards that can be used to run linux.
And just like that I’m all about Ubuntu phones now
Which devices are you planning to get at right now?
Either buy pine or try out userland for current but I haven’t completed the research yet
I have a feeling, that Windows 12 PCs will be just glorified smartphones with voice control as the default.
Good thing I transitioned to Linux mint (my first distro!) And I will never return to windows. I have some mild challenges in getting some games and programs to work. But I overcame some and I will overcome the others. I also welcome the challenges.
Bold of you to assume that they’ll let you to install Linux on your PC…
Okay I just read Debian’s manual about UEFI so I’m basically now an expert. And I feel like even if Microsoft refuses to sign, there should still be a demand for mobos that can either add new keys or disable SecureBoot.
Congrats. I love the green color. This is exactly the route I plan to do. I’m almost thinking about just uninstalling Win10 and switching to Mint right now.
I refused to play any games that relies on kernel level binaries like FortNight and League.
That’s the whole intention of requiring TPM for Windows 11. It’s coming soon.
They also banned Kaspersky in the states because they weren’t whitelisting state malware.
Wasn’t amd pluton or something going to do that?
I just bought a new and CPU and Chinese motherboard and I could still install Ubuntu without problems
Too late to do this for PCs. You already have Linux laptop providers and Linux distros supported by corporations. Most of the components have multiple providers. You will be able to source “unlocked” hardware from somewhere.
The problem with mobile is that the hardware is too complicated for open source projects to handle. Many have tried, all have failed. So far. Hopefully we will finally see something usable come out of projects like PinePhone and PostmarketOS.
all have failed
Here I sit, an eternal failure.
- posted from my Oneplus 6T on PostmarketOS
To be honest, I don’t have any hope. I just keep running. When I run out of places to hide, maybe I’ll give computers up and get into philosophy or something. If only 1M signatures carried the weight of $1M, we might stand a chance.
Where from here? Keep finding obscure ways to use computers freely, different chipsets, virtualization, remote access, whatever it takes. Fuck Microsoft, Google and Apple.
$1M carries the weight of about 1M signatures, which is to say… not much.
Has Fairphone failed in this regard, in your opinion?
Too late to do this for PCs.
let me tell you about this little thing called windows 11.
I know for a fact that this is exactly where compute is going, just look at the aggressive moves that MS has been making over the last 15-25 years.
it starts with requiring an always on connection, and ends with hardware lockout like Mac has.
sure Linux will be an option… but for how much longer? all the old devs are retiring and the new ones…god help us. they want to rewrite it like any greenhorn, and they want to use…rust??!
I give it 10-15 years before hardware locks out Linux, and Linux is dying.
I’m a Linux user btw, so don’t think I’m a MS or Mac fan.
Linux is dying
I definitely am not getting this impression, especially with the recent boost in popularity, but this isn’t my field of expertise. Any reading you can recommend to get an old man up to speed?
Just to add on top of that I think Linux will be good as long as Torvalds is alive. After that who knows what would happen. They might add binaries to mainstream kernel that lock you out and who can stop them ? We are lucky we live in times where we have a choice.
They might add binaries to mainstream kernel that lock you out and who can stop them ?
Who are “they”?
It seams you don’t know how Linux kernel is maintained. Linus is simply releasing the most commonly used versions of it. Nothing stops you from choosing a different one. If someone takes over the main kernel and starts doing weird things distros will simply package another kernel by default.
Most of servers run Linux, and servers are just computers.
https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/system/clouddc/1u/sys-611c-tn4r is not running anticheat required software, bank webapps and windows store could start requiring: https://insider-gaming.com/battlefield-6-secureboot-not-enabled-error/
What makes mobile hardware more complicated than desktop hardware?
It’s a long history lesson. But the gist is that IBM made an architecture that allowed for modular LEGO style construction of computers. They were assholes and tried to make it lock down by keeping software secret and proprietary, but it was so popular that everyone else copied it and IBM/PC clones were born. Then the architecture became the standard, and everyone could make components for a PC with (more or less) assurance that any component made would be compatible and fit into (almost) any other computer.
Phones, on the other hand were born out of the necessity of being the smallest and most portable device possible. This meant bespoke solutions. The people who were chasing that format chose an architecture, ARM, that at the time required everything to be on a single chip. Memory, storage, CPU, CMOS, everything has to be on the chip. Which means exchanging parts is not possible. System on chip became the smart phone standard. Now, technically ARM doesn’t have to always be SOC. But it means two things, first is that every phone model is an unique and bespoke production that will never exist again once out of print. Second, it is a Titanic task to reverse engineer certain parts of it, firmware for sensor input is always unique, for example.
This means that FOSS is at a disadvantage. To make free open software for a phone means that, either a manufacturer is magnanimous and gives you all the firmware, or after a major effort to reverse engineer lots of pieces of software, it will be useless for the next model of phone. You either make your own open standard phone, which is a several billion dollar r&d endeavor. Or you’re constantly shooting at a fast moving target.
No one has created an open standard that allows small component manufacturing of mutually interchangeable parts for phones. Risc-v is close but not yet terribly financially viable.
It’s not any one platform that is too complicated, it’s that none of it was standardized. So once you have support for one phone completely done, the next model is already released 6 months ago and you have to start almost from scratch again.
Pixel was one exception to this, because Google would release and document all the modifications needed to run Android. Unfortunately they stopped doing this as well.
Contrast this to the x86 PC and laptop market and everything basic, like how to discover hardware, how to boot is all a documented standard. Even though on PC, you still have to deal with drivers for specific hardware.
Another reason why PC is much easier for Linux is that much of the hardware is shared with servers and for servers, Linux is absolutely a first class operating system, which all but some extremely niche hardware manufacturers fully support.
You need way, way better sleep handling. To get decent battery life everything needs to be able to go to sleep really fast but also be able to listen for signals from specific devices like GSM modem and wake up immediately. Without it it’s not really usable. Desktop PCs didn’t have any sleep functionality for a very long time and even now they mostly just disable everything and wait for a button press. Sleep/wake-up cycle can last couple of seconds without issues.
Mobile hardware also has more devices. I don’t have GPS, GSM, accelerometer or finger print reader in my laptop. When Linux was developed they also didn’t have cameras or bluetooth. A lot of this additional devices are not easily available like PC parts and require closed source drivers and firmware.
To make a usable mobile phone you need to figure out all if it at once. You can’t really release a phone without GPS or GSM and expect people to use it as a daily driver. With PC you can live without the camera or build in WiFi. I remember using USB dongles for WiFi and simply not having a working camera in my Linux laptops and I was fine with it.
What are these Linux laptop providers going to sell if they can’t order anything from the factory that lets them change the software because reasons
Just updated my pinephone the other day. It’s not spectacular in terms of usability. It does the bare minimum at the bare minimum.
I’m saying that there’s enough laptop providers and enough different factories to maintain supply of unlocked hardware. You don’t have to worry about locked CPU/GPUs, only about locked bootloaders which have a lot of different providers. With mobiles it’s easier to lock because it’s all packed into SOCs and you don’t have as much choice for latest hardware.
You’re describing Secure Boot. It happened years ago.
And, btw, the Android thing also doesn’t affect anyone without gapps. Chill out.
There is no requirement for it, and can be disabled
Exactly.
You’re describing Secure Boot.
Secure Boot is literally configurable. You can create your own key and sign whatever you want with it. See sbctl.
Yes and no. Most firmware this is impossible.
When I was tasked with buying laptops for a company, I made sure to test Linux compatibility on every machine. If the model didn’t support Linux, we didn’t buy it.
Most of the devs were windows users, but there were enough devs and sysadmins that preferred Linux that it just made more sense to only buy hardware that supports both windows and Linux. I’m sure a lot of tech companies have a similar policy (it’s one reason think pads are so ubiquitous)
Corporate pressure would never allow such lockdown in the market
And, btw, the Android thing also doesn’t affect anyone without gapps. Chill out.
so only 99% are affected, that really calms me down.
Many services that are connected to finance/payment require gapps, car sharing, banking etc.
you are right about secure boot, but this was rolled out with proper alternative routes from the beginning. i did not see anything like this for Android at this time
Don’t install gapps. And ffs don’t use banking on insecure devices anyway
If I don’t install gapps my banking apps don’t work.
Does the bank app do anything that the mobile bank website can’t? I’ve never felt the need to install an actual bank app. You can use micro g or sandbox gapps.
Some banks the website works only if you install some kernel modules. Worst than use the cellphone app.
I would literally switch banks over this
If it is possible yes, but sometimes it is not or the other options are even worst.
Define insecure devices.
Eh, just means it isn’t plug and play. Once you have the hardware, you are the admin.
It may get tougher, but it’ll never be impossible.
Tell that to the Intel management engine or secure platform module
Hi intel management system, you can be thrown into abnormal states where you sit there eating glue.
It’s been tried a bit before, but didn’t get through. The current situation with secure boot is worrying, because we’re one manufacturer playing ball away from it to become a reality.
I’d like to say there’s strong incentive to not do that, but it seems that logic alone would not stop this kind of push. And weirdly enough, even financial risk might not be enough, as we’ve seen baffling decisions made these last few months.
The main saving graces is that there are more than two manufacturer for motherboard, and as far as I know, patent lockdown and secrecy isn’t as big on PC hardware than on mobile boards, so it might be easier to escape such lockdown. But fully locked down systems under external control is clearly where some people wants us to go.
Users are getting dumber by the day. The people arguing back to me about “this is a you problem” when I mention reasons why device ownership is important is way too fucking high.
This is why you gatekeep hobbies. Keep the dipshits out so they don’t become the masses that ruin what you enjoy.
Exactly, if I like something I try to keep it on the down low, or only spread it in circles where I know it will be similarly appreciated, the moment a majority of the people are into something, that thing will now get subjected to external influences that require it to be liked by everyone and most people are mediocre so the thing moves towards mediocrity
Linux is quite well established now on home pc’s and servers to the dismay of Microsoft and Apple. I hated Secureboot , built into UEFI, during startup by verifying the digital signatures of firmware, drivers, and the OS bootloader. Reading into Deep State Mass surveillance helps:
https://www.printernational.co.uk/timmann/history.htm#surveillance
Nothing says that Linux could eventually evolve into the same thing or fail to ever really function for the masses.
I would say if/when PCs move over to ARM than we very well may see the same issues mobile devices have. There is a severe lack of Linux compatibility due to proprietary drivers, sometimes no drivers at all, no software support, and no device trees.
Also ARM is way less standard. While UEFI does exist on ARM, most just use some custom bootloader. And let’s not forget how ARM is protecting its Mali Linux drivers.
there is another… but, it may be RISCy
As much as I love RISC-V I’m afraid it will turn just like arm now, the architecture is open but every chipset that came out is not, there isn’t an unified booting standard like UEFI+ACPI for RISC-V
God I hope i’m wrong
I have the ubuntu 25 concept installed on my snapdragon HP Omnibook 14
Other than a few software hiccups you would expect of a “concept build” it works almost perfectly and is now my daily driver. Actually getting the OS on the machine was pretty easy too, it has something akin to a bios. the process isn’t all that different.
The more difficult bit was getting the drivers working after installing the OS. no all of them have been released under license yet so some of them you have to poach from the windows partition. also audio required some tweaking.
Well yes many arm PCs do work, im just saying eventually they will be locked down
They’d have to completely kill the ability to build your own machine (the whole “IBM compatability” thing) and I don’t see that happening when almost every business and factory uses their own custom shit for specific niche reasons.
Not really. The pieces are already in place with UEFI and Secure Boot. All that would need to happen would be to force Secure Boot to be enabled, and only preload keys for an approved list of operating systems. With that, your fancy new motherboard may not be able to boot and run the OS of your choice.
Then all the software nerds become hardware nerds, and the cycle continues.
