- cross-posted to:
- PLT@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- PLT@sh.itjust.works
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The last bit really speaks to me. “So they want a cookie for basic behavior??” YES THEY’RE CHILDREN. COOKIES ARE THE DRIVING MARKET FORCE IN PRETEENS. GIVE THE KID THE DAMN COOKIE.
Cookies are my driving force, and I am in my 60s.
Username definitely checks out and is so very wholesome. I picture you baking your own cookies and sitting down after a long day with one saying “I deserve this” and you absolutely do!
deleted by creator
I like anarchy because I can trace a short line to a systemic failure in any instance
A big part of this is that parts of the Democrat base loves to actively sabotage any Democrat outreach efforts, because they are more interested in smug fart sniffing than strategic pragmatism.
more interested in smug fart sniffing than strategic pragmatism.
exactly.
For example: see the commenters in this thread
Whenever I mention that the way things get phrased in left spaces matters, I get yelled at that it doesn’t matter. This is why it matters.
I’m an adult, so.im not going to let some Internet Dipshit who can’t practice what they preach chase me right, but there’s plenty of vulnerable kids out there, who do have real problems, that are sick of being told those problems don’t matter because of how they look - which is similar to the people WHO ARE ALSO OPPRESSING THEM.
Stop attacking fellow victims of the system. You are not creating allies
Yes. The left is horrible at messaging, both in terms of word-choice AND in terms of attitude. I fundamentally agree with left-leaning ideals far more than right-leaning ideals, but holy shit there are people who are just dog-shit at the messaging, and somehow that messaging sticks the hardest.
Heartbreaking: A Twitch Streamer Just Made a Great Point
The difference between liberal feminism and leftist feminism.
Yeah, let’s put a label on it because we really have to smear someone somehow. I think the messaging must have gone right over your head.
No.
They’re making a summary of distinctions made by a good deal of academics.
You are just unaware of these as pre-existing terms, so you think this person is the first person to put an adjective in front of feminism.
They are not.
Yes, I’m smearing Liberals.
What the person did there blaming kids to be inherently bad is a classic example of reactionary politics which Liberals specialise in plus given the history of liberal feminism particulalry in the US, I dont get why you’re offended.
Other aspects of Liberal femnism include:
- Thinking only specific cultures are enlightened enough to do feminism because other cultures might be “barbaric”
- Disdain for the working women who do menial jobs(prevelant in my country)
- Savarna Femnisim(upper caste femnisim) - related to the previous point but in this instance unique to upper class caste system practionerd in the subcontinent
- Blaming people of certain communities of being misoynistic bc they didn’t vote in a war criminal - related to the first point and prevelant in you know where
Point of all that yapping isn’t just about putting in “labels”. My point was recognising the fact that without having overall class consciousness feminism is useless as that version of feminism isn’t truly universal and doesnt actually tackle conditions as to why right-wing or misogyny appears. It’s the nature versus nurture argument which itself ties in to historical materialism. Sure empathizing with nurture vis-a-vis nature is not exlcusive to Marxism, but being a reactionary in regards to these sure is a lot more prevalant. Its the same reason you hear “Palestinians are inherently antisemitic” argument over and over again from imperial core liberals.
Yhank you for listening to my TED talk.
Sincerely,
Person who you will most certainly call an insane tankie for having the most milquetoast lefty opinion.
For what its worth, this anarchist agrees with you.
As someone raised as a white Christian male: no, I have never felt like people were calling me evil, shunning me, or pushing me away because I am white, Christian, or male. That is such a bullshit take and people need to not tolerate that persecution complex nonsense.
Assholes get called assholes for being assholes, and instead of any sort of introspection they blame it on them being “white” or “male,” because to them being a white male means they get to be an asshole and everyone else just has to accept it.
Isn’t it nice how of all the people commenting ITT you’re the only one whose personal experience can be generalized to an entire race+gender of people? You’re very lucky.
So we agree it is not a universal experience that all white males are vilified for being white males?
The post never claims all white males are being vilified, just that enough are being vilified or at least ignored in leftist spaces to push them away and into far-right / alt-right spaces.
enough are being vilified or at least ignored in leftist spaces
Which I have never encountered. I see no data supporting that claim. Why is there anecdote more valuable than mine? Are you ignoring me because I’m a white male?
I’m gonna be real bro this is a real midwit argument. Can you understand that this is happening enough to be noticed as a trend and an issue that must be addressed?
As for a source, there are countless examples of both your experience and the experience of men who fell into the pipeline after being shunned and finding there way out.
I’m not arguing they should be shunned, I’m saying people need to not feed into this “white male” persecution complex bs.
Absolutely having gentle conversations with them helps. And sometimes that gentle conversation is “they’re not treating you this way because you’re white, they’re treating you this way because of how you act.”
This is a civil discussion on the internet. It is possible it seems.
Not here though
How dare you say we can’t be civil?! The fucking nerve!
(very, VERY big /S)
See how nice tumblr is?
Can someone please steal Twitter’s url and redirect it there?
Where exactly does she mention twelve-year old boys?
Or is Vaush just doing his normal shitlib thing of pretending not to have heard what the other person was saying?
It’s assholeish to bring it up that way if that wasn’t the original scope of what they were saying, but otherwise a fair point since teenage boys are probably the most vulnerable and relevant target for that kind of messaging.
It’s assholeish to bring it up that way
No. It’s telling.
shitlib
Oh look at you proving the entire point of the post.
Lots here are proving to be very defensive of a misogynistic creep masquerading as a leftist - is there any particular reason why?
I’m not defending anyone. I just find these purity politics disgusting.
You’ve all chosen a very interesting opportunity to start being concerned about “purity politics.”
No, I haven’t. You don’t know me. I’ve been against for a long time.
The OOP may not have directly said it in their original post. But when people talk about young men “falling down the alt-right pipeline” it is generally referring to how thoroughly targeted that entire like 12-18 age bracket is with right wing propaganda. You’re usually talking about kids that aren’t old enough to know they’re being taken for a ride yet. So while that person may have been referring to like… idk 18-22 year olds that’s such a huge outlier in the usual discussion that it should be clowned on.
idk much about the guy you’re talking about, but as someone with a 14 year old that I’ve had to teach to navigate this propaganda he’s accurate in this instance. The way the right talks to these young men is insidious, and the kind of sentiment OOP is espousing here does nothing to stop young men being pulled rightward.
But when people talk about young men
12-year olds aren’t “young men.”
idk much about the guy you’re talking about
Vaush is a proven misogynist creep. So it should come as no surprise that those of us who know what he and his (so-called) “dirtbag left” ilk really is all about - ie, reactionary shitlibs masquerading as leftists - doesn’t buy it when he suddenly jumps to the defence of a demographic that wasn’t even a part of the discussion.
12-year olds aren’t “young men”
Respectfully when I know for a fact that what this guy is talking about is happening because I’ve watched it happen to dozens of kids that age in my life and constantly see it in my own feeds because I try to keep my privacy at least a little so the algorithms can never decide if I’m a teen gamer boy they should push Neo-Nazi shit to or a newly out trans girl I could not give less of a fuck what your definition of “young men” is. In fact I think young men is a pretty fair generalization for dudes that could very well be beginning puberty depending on the person. If you’re claiming they weren’t part of the discussion when they very clearly need to be I think that’s a problem.
what this guy is talking about is happening
Feminists have been talking about this for more than a hundred years now… yet a reactionary grifter says it to score cheap points in an attempt to strawman his opponent and now you all want to die on this hill?
I’m starting to think the way it looks is the way it is.
If you agree that it’s happening, why do you minimize the statement by saying that 12 year old boys aren’t young men? Is it really so hard to leverage a win from even an imperfect messenger? I feel like if I disliked a guy but he happened to be saying a correct thing I’d leverage it into getting people to care about my cause.
Like maybe leading with how feminists have been talking about how reactionary forces prey on young men to perpetuate the patriarchal structure? Rather than saying fuck this guy he’s bad the person he’s responding to didn’t even mention 12 year old boys. Like… if we both agree that the right going after 12 year old boys is a problem, why are you sitting here arguing about some “reactionary grifter” that made up not even a quarter of the post?
The person you’re replying to is just trying to frustrate you.
Yeah I started getting that feeling when they went from 12 year olds being entirely unimportant and nobody was talking about them to saying feminists have been talking about this for a hundred years but I only care now because some reactionary grifter is saying it.
This shit frustrates me so much about the Online Left at times I swear. It feels like so much of Online Lefty politics is fucking LARP, and virtue signaling. Like a lot of these people’s politics begins and ends with “Well I’m already doing the Good Thing™ so I shouldn’t have to engage in this. Everyone else is The Problem and should just do the Good Thing™ like me.”
Your terminally online personal bias against him is completely coloring over the point being made. It’s a good point, but you’re fighting it not because it wrong, but because of who said it. You can’t attack the point so you attack the person with niche hyper-parasocial bullshit.
Go outside.
You can’t attack the point
Why would I attack a point that THE ENTIRE LEFT ALREADY UNDERSTANDS VERY WELL and has done so for a very long time?
Your terminally online personal bias
Your enthusiastic defense of a white supremacist and a misogynist has been noted, shitlib.
LOL you honestly think that Vaush is a white supremacist? Holy hell.
Go
Out
Side.
Ooooh… shitlib can’t recognize a white supremacist unless they’re wearing a white hood, eh?
Colour me surprised.
For what it’s worth I haven’t heard that, he’s just a creep who likes loli horse porn and has such terrible judgment that he doesn’t separate his work computer from his goon computer.
I agree with his take in this image and don’t think him being gross and having bad judgment disqualifies him from making those good points. But I also agree with the dirtbag left shitlib take, that’s a solid take about Vaush. That should be Vaush’s tagline honestly.
I think people like Vaush occupy an important space in leftist pipepline structure. Wokescolds hate it, purity test leftists hate it, but if you want to de radicalize some of these extremists, you have to give them an avenue to do so.
Young men like people like Vaush, like Hasan, like Destiny. I don’t like all of them, (I really don’t like Destiny because he’s a zionist defending shill), BUT the left needs people like them. Kids aren’t going to turn on Sam Seder or listen to an hour long deepdive vid. And it’s not just young men, I should say, MOST people are politically disengaged, they’re not terminally online, they’re not consuming hours of political theory… They want to hear a hot take, watch some cat videos and fart. You can hate that, but that’s like most people, they’re not into politics like that.
When we finger wag people for not “doing politics right” they aren’t going “oh, apologies, let me try again to meet your standard”… No, they’re going say “fuckyou” and start watching Aidan Ross, or Tim Pool or Asmongold… that’s not moving the needle in the way you want.
As far as the “Vaush Bad/Vaush Gooner” stuff, I don’t know, I don’t really give a shit enough about it. Maybe it’s as bad as people say, or maybe it’s just overblown because people LOVE to attack lefty streamers. Case and point, everyone losing their shit to jump on the “Hasan shocks his dog” story. Maybe it’s true, but a lot of it feels manufactured… so…
He’s such a small part of the entire text that taking his statement as anything other than a jumping off point to start with feels a little silly.
Unfortunately, once in a rare while asshats can start a reasonable conversation.
Shitlib? The OP is using liberal logic “the individual chooses to be a fascist” The person responding is using a Marxist understanding: These misogynists did not wake up one day and decided to hate women, they became that way growing up in a misogynist society, they were formed by their material conditions.
It is our job, of leftists to engage with the dialectic and push them to our side by being able to offer young boys an alternative.
This is my understanding at least.
Struthless has a really good video about this. I’ve seen it happen to the young men in my life first-hand. To my siblings, my friends, and - yes - even to myself at one point. And that hole is a hell of a lot harder to climb out of than it is to fall into, and I’m very lucky to have had some good, caring people in my life who helped me to do it. An uncomfortable truth that we on the left must face, is that this is an issue that will only get worse the longer we pretend it doesn’t exist.
Thanks for the video, whole-heartedly. I’m an older millennial and don’t really subscribe to youtube channels ever… but I did for that because I wanna be able to find them again. They were refreshing and I appreciate it
Just left a much less succinct version of this same exact sentiment. It really sucks seeing my family indoctrinate their own children, one of which is not severely but not moderately either spectrum. The sad shit I’ve heard come out of his mouth has been truly heart breaking.
Edit; watching that video was very reassuring as someone currently struggling with alcohol addiction. That compass metaphor was so incredibly powerful.
Years ago I argued that misandrist feminist rhetoric (e.g. all men are rapists) was going to wind up creating a misogynistic counter-culture.
These days, I watch it unfold and just feel very very sad as it will ruin lives.
I don’t think misandrist feminist rhetoric actually existed in any significant amount. It was a tiny obnoxious subculture of femcels, trolls, and “drop the t” holdover second wave feminists (who, ironically, turned around and made common cause with the misogynistic right once they got the opportunity).
There were far more right wing misogynists complaining about evil man hating feminists than there were actual man hating feminists.
What created the misogynistic counterculture was a. aggressive campaign of anti-feminist propaganda aimed at convincing young men that all feminists hated them, aided and abetted by a social media algorithm that hunted down the worst and stupidest takes and repeated them everywhere.
And when young men started repeating this misogynistic male influencer propaganda in real life, women in real life started treating them like misogynists. Which only confirmed their belief that feminists hated them.
But rather than blaming individual women for not interacting with individual men repeating misogynistic propaganda, I put more blame on social media and the atomization of Western society. Good male role models, good female authority figures, some trusted friend or family member to actually talk to in real life, could probably have interrupted this cycle for a lot of young men. But a lot of young people don’t really have role models anymore.
I agree the played victim like a soccer player.
I’ll pop a little observation in here, as I’ve generally had a woman for my manager for most of my professional career (doesn’t bother me, they’ve all been good managers).
It’s socially acceptable to make a joke about men (you know what men are like lol), it’s a visit to HR if you make the same joke about women (you know what women are like lol). This isn’t a false perception, or over exaggerated bit of right wing propaganda, it’s just working life being a man.
I’ll NEVER forget an inaugural lecture where a professor stated she’d always hire women over men for her research team, and people cheered. She’d have been stripped of her title as a man, possibly sacked.
To be quite frank, there are hundreds of little “adjustments” men live with today. I’m sorry to say that the iniquity men face today is real, and while older men can see how it balances past iniquities (or are indifferent) - younger men just see the iniquity levelled against them and rightly question it because their only crime is being a man.
It isn’t just “a few” - it’s the normality we’ve created. It’s a sad situation, because in the pursuit of justice we’ve created injustice and the predators that shape the manosphere have monopolised it for their own selfish ends.
I get it. It’s like the quote goes, “when you’re used to privilege, equality feels like oppression”. And that’s an important quote when spoken with empathy, because people shouldn’t feel oppressed, and if we’re making people feel oppressed by our efforts to attain equality, we are failing somewhere in our project, and need to think about why we’re making people feel oppressed and how we can do better.
(I mean, you wrote that men face inequities today to balance past inequities. But that isn’t quite right. Explicit inequities - for example, making open efforts to hire more women - are meant to balance current, more subtle inequities - like every HR department using AI tools to screen resumes, and those AI tools being biased in favor of men because they were trained on biased training data. But men don’t generally see the implicit and structural biases that still exist in their favor. The do see the explicit way companies try to hire more women. And they, reasonably, feel it’s unfair. If I didn’t know how biased AI resume screening tools were against female candidates, and just saw the DEI hiring policies companies put in place to counter that bias, I’d think male candidates were being oppressed too 😆)
But conversations are hard. And the solution to this specific problem - which includes better education, more historical literacy among young people, and, yeah, discouraging people from saying things that sound bigoted against men - is especially hard.
So we decided we’d already won the debate and our critics were already consigned to the dustbin of history, and anybody who feels oppressed is obviously wrong and needs to man up and get over it.
Whoops.
Left is so othering. They want to qualify and categorise everything and everyone they meet. Stick name and stat tags on everyone so they can easily see where they belong on a purity hierarchy (which they are obviously queen of)
Source: cishet intj whtmle veg/choice/vax millennial leftist.
When I was doing the whole poly thing I was hanging out with a lot of self identified queer / kinky people. Among other things.
The first thing they’d always ask me is how I identified. And I’d always respond: I don’t.
First of all it’s no one’s business who I choose to fuck unless I want to fuck them, and I always found it exceedingly cringy that people would make this their whole personality.
Secondly this shit just others people.all the labels just creates these homogenous bubbles of people that all just engage in masturbatory groupthink, and so many of them have almost no dealings at all with anyone who doesn’t share their labels.
Fuck me , fuck women, be a man, be a woman, do whatever the fuck you want as long as it’s consensual. But DO it, BE it. Accepting people who are in anyway not the norm should also mean accepting people who ARE, and you’re not being inclusive if you don’t include anyone who isn’t like you.
I‘m into hot people.
I’m into lobsters
Be nice and encouraging when talking about people. Saying mean-sounding things puts people off. Yes, even when it’s really important people get the severity of something. Talk about the people who are suffering and the people who are actively doing it. Encourage people to think about how they might end up doing terrible things and how to prevent that. I know it feels so fucking wrong to be a politician about your most basic values, but there’s a reason politicians are the way they are: they get shit done that way.
They hated him because he said the truth (and didn’t hand over his platform to someone “more marginalized” after one single drama).
