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One of the things I like about Horizon Zero Dawn is they introduced cosmetics so you didn’t have to compromise your visual style for the right set of numbers for your current opponents.
That’s how I used to play World of Warcraft. Two-handed Shockadin forever!
Ah man, WoW was a rough game to not follow the meta. I always felt so bad about it, because if you had really good friends, they would say that you were still contributing and useful when you were playing your little niche build, but man you had to rely on never looking at the numbers, not playing optimally would end with you holding back just so many people.
Yeah, especially in vanilla most hybrid classes were basically useless outside their “main” role when it came to high-end raiding.
I remember starting a Hunter because they could have pets but got real bored real quick. It felt too easy. After a bit of research, I changed to a warrior. At launch the warrior was the most under powered class.
Solo levelled my way to 60. Took me twice the time to get to level 60 because I kept going on adventures. Made it to Gadgetzan at some ridiculously low level (after many deaths). I also found a bunch of easter eggs before hitting 60 too.
I was allowed to be a DPS warrior in raids and at one point was matching or outdoing Rogues for damage. Used to speed run Stratholme and Scholomance as a fury Warrior because my healers loved the chaotic challenge of keeping me alive.
I had so much fun playing my own way and that probably contributed to why I had such good friends in the guild during that time. I had to quit because the expansions kept adding too much grind and it sucked having all that hard earned gear become pointless every new expansion :(
Very similar to my experience. The game was more fun doing what I wanted instead of cookie cutter builds and min maxing.
Don’t sleep on the private servers offering WotLK Classic with XP modifiers (x3, x7, etc). Group of friends decided to spin up characters and “donate” like 20 bucks and end up with enough gold to just buy all the mats for most professions. Makes it easy to meme ourselves a good time (all warlock party? Sure why not)
I was allowed to be a DPS warrior in raids and at one point was matching or outdoing Rogues for damage.
I can’t remember how often I switched between being the guild’s main tank and DPS warriors. I wanted to do DPS but due to activity and skill concerns I was always roped back into being the MT. Upside was I was basically collecting the top-tier gear for both specs. But DPS warriors were always somewhat competitive. Poor DPS Paladins were basically never viable in high-end raids during all of vanilla.
Also the warsong PVP battleground with a raid equipped main tank was fun … well, for us.
Used to speed run Stratholme and Scholomance as a fury Warrior because my healers loved the chaotic challenge of keeping me alive.
Ha, I remember [Righteous Orb] farming there, which eventually just turned into speedruns. Our healer needed them and by the end we were going in with 3 dps warriors, a mage and a priest, just smashing through it. Occasionally we’d only be 4 people and invite some random (conditions is we got the orbs, but we don’t care about anything else). Many though we were mad for going in without a tank. Good times.
My guild had so many tanks and off-tanks that I was always last pick as a tank but I still attended most raids. I made myself useful by getting every alchemy, cooking and first aid recipes along with damage and tanking for “oh shit” moments.
As a warrior, I had access to every gear so I used my first points on onyxia bags for all my bag slots. I carried random gear like the underwater breathing staff, a huge amount of potions (especially running potions), a wedding dress and a flame enchanted broom to beat people with while wearing a wedding dress. I had so many gimmick items to amuse people during any down time.
I had so many points that I suddenly went from a mix of random gear to a mix of really good random gear. It was fun to be a menace in PvP before PvP gear became the norm. Healers loved me because they liked playing with my life and I always quick to protect them. Enemies hated me because I’d get all the heals or I’d be the most annoying mosquito if they attacked my healers.
Lots of good memories from that time but MMO’s never hit the same after that game. The people I met during that time were what made that it all special.
We had a paladin with a thunderfury …
Did somebody say [Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker]?
Same but i pick the largest fattest slowest guy because i find it funny to kill the lightly armoured fast moving players with a fat slow guy.
she says condiii~
I’ll never forget an old MTG article about the 3 different types of players. I’ve found that it applies to most games and a lot of life too. There are Spike, Timmy, and Johnny.
Spike players just want to win. They don’t care if the way they win isn’t fun or interesting. All they care about is the W.
Timmy players are all about style. They don’t care if they lose as long as they do something big, flashy, and cool.
Johnny players are in between. They want to win with style. They want the big flashy move to win them the game.
All three players are having fun but they define “fun” in their own ways. Games should try to have ways to satisfy all three types of players.
Isn’t there like a Winston?
Winston is a filthy casual. Complicated rules, paragraphs on the card, any automation, doing too many things in a single turn are all reasons he doesn’t have fun. He isn’t very bright. He is the antithesis of Spike. He has fun by playing the game for a reasonable length of time.
Losing on turn 1 is the culmination of everything Winston hates.
Source: Am a Winston…
Right now Winston stops playing every CGC because of incessant power creep.
Games shouldn’t satisfy people who just crave winning no matter what.
It’s as absurd as saying that some people want art to be beautiful, some want it to be meaningful, and some want it to just be boobs, and that you should satisfy all of them.
Games should have a point, and winning is not a point on its own. People who focus on winning are typically and almost exclusively the ones that make games become shittier and shittier. And not just games but anything that can remotely have a “win”.
Here’s an alternative perspective.
But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can imagine.
Uh, citation needed.
I don’t like that this article seems to be written by a Type-A 22-year-old whining that none of his friends want to play Settlers of Catan with him anymore.
There is a point to be made here about people having a self-improvement mindset, about not letting their frustrations take over, about not jumping to conclusions regarding which game tactics are unfair or not in an obvious bid to cover for some self-made injury to their self-esteem. And I would love to make that point.
But, there is something really important that seems to be missing from this discussion entirely: sportsmanship.
Dominating the board with move choices that are optimal but which do not respect the other players, their time, or the spirit of fair-play
Is rude.
This is sort of fine in an online context where anyone who doesn’t like you can find another lobby, but you would really struggle to do things like “gain a minor lead and then run out the timer” every match in the living room with six of your cousins, and you know exactly why.
Anyway, I strongly disagree with this article, even though we might come to a lot of the same conclusions about the… pragmatism of tournament rules, or whatever.
Games should have a point, and winning is not a point on its own.
Why not? Is wanting to win not a valid motivator to play a game?
It is, but if it is your only motivator, the games shouldn’t cater to you.
I’d argue there’s room for both - however, the real enemy is capitalism as any game could have a well-balanced casual and competitive modes, but they take time and care which costs money and most games forced to extract money not support fun at the behest of boards, shareholders and c-suites.
Yes they should. Playing competitively and with a focus on winning is just as good as any other reason to play games.
What about Mark?
My brother, who is the worst video game player I’ve known in my entire life. Takes games more seriously than any human being I know but is horrendous at them. Every thing he does is defended as the clearly correct choice no matter how conspicuously wrong it is; Continually grieves not being included in groups, complains that he’s not durable or DPS enough, but will reject out of hand the mildest hint, statement, suggestion, instruction, or commandment. Hated by every guild he’s ever been a part of; Only functional carrying characters an order of magnitude of lower power, and that makes him feel like Ultra Eternity King Lord Of All Games.
That’s an Incel subclass
You know what, that completely tracks
I’m definitely johnny. I find a playstyle/character/build/whatever applies I like and then I’ll minmax the shit out of it. But I won’t just switch to what’s meta.
Almost everyone is Johnny. Spike and Timmy are caricature types - the uncompromising extremes. If Johnny was on the list you’d have to choose if you are more similar to Spike to more similar to Timmy, but since he is there - representing the entire range between the other two - you, a complex real-life (I hope?) person and not a shallow 1D character, are bound to meaninglessly identify as a Johnny.
Yea it’s more I’d say if it’s a scale from 0 to 1 I’m somewhere in the interval from 0.45 to 0.55. I’m hella competitive but I also have no fun just following a meta.
You forgot the funnest two, Melvin and Vorthos!
Melvin is the mechanics guy, he plays because he loves the complex interaction between different parts. This is the guy building fully automated redstone in Minecraft.
Vothos is the lore master. He might not even be good at the game but he can recite the history of Tamriel in elder scrolls verbatim.
Who is the guy that shows up on time and just wants to have fun, no matter the outcome; win, lose, or draw?
For reasons I can’t explain I’m certain that’s a Ted… a cool Todd, basically.
This is a great thread. I’ll add Jesse.
Jesse is there to hang out with his buddies and wants to just BS.
The game is just common ground for a Jesse or group of Jesse’s to shoot the shit for an hour or two at the end of a long day. Previous generation would find your Jesse hanging out at the bar, or sports ball games. Jesse’s really started appearing in games en masse during covid. They aren’t necessarily good at the game, often bad, but that doesn’t matter.
My gaming group are all Jesse’s.
You forgot the funnest two, Melvin and Vorthos!
Melvin is the mechanics guy, he plays because he loves the complex interaction between different parts. This is the guy building fully automated redstone in Minecraft.
Vothos is the lore master. He might not even be good at the game but he can recite the history of Tamriel in elder scrolls verbatim.
I am Vothos when it comes to Warhammer 40k. I don’t play the table top, I just like the minis and lore
Same. Affording a set and having a friend to play it with? Too rich for my blood.
See I’m just not super into board games
Edit: but yeah also having friends that are also into warhammer is tough lol. Especially when you live in a rural place like Maine
Here in Kansas people still think dungeons and dragons will get you into Satanism.
You are forgetting about Steve. Steve doesn’t care about winning, Steve only wants you to suffer. He will play a mono blue deck (or red with tons of removal) full of counters and spells to bounce back permanents to your hand. He will have a single 1/1 flier to poke at you every turn while he stops you from playing the game completely. Go fuck yourself Steve. (also Teemo main in league)
Former Teemo troll here, and all I can say is "watch out for mushrooms"😂
Jigglypuff flashbacks intensify
Shuckle is the best pokemon
That was just CounterPost.
Also Winter Orb and Icy Manipulator.
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Picking Billy rather than Jimmy in Double Dragon.
One of the reasons I stopped playing Destiny 2 was that, when the vaulting started, they just straight up sunset my favourite cloak. And none of the packs released after that gave me a radder cloak. And nowadays I have zero confidence in that they eventually will.
Yet somehow still end up as a Skyrim stealth archer.
I always liked stealth, but I was a stealth mace cat person. CLANG!
The humorous bit to me is I have never even been tempted to stealth arch. I just started flaming people to death from level one and never stop. Why, yes, I will kill alduin with double handed flames, thank you very much!
Never happened to me, but I hate shooters.
Especially in RPGs, you shouldn’t want the most efficient build possible because those are boring. You should instead want something that is fun to play and fits your character.
I immensely enjoyed dual wielding swords and using the time stop shout. Its DPS was so high, they could kill an entire room of enemies before the time stop ended. making them all fall to the ground at the same time while you sheath your swords like a badass.
Or the time I played in VR a stealth conjuration/necromancer. I could just sit on the floor and nobody could find me. While my minions did all the fighting. If an enemy died, their corps would be raised and added to my army.
This time for sure, I’ll throw away every bow I get, just blade and magic this time! Oh wow, you can conjure a sword that does way more damage than the swords I have access to. Let’s see what else I can conj- and I’m a stealth archer with a bound bow, damnit…
Play any MOBA with chat disabled.
happened to me with one of the Need for Speed games and the Volkswagen Golf R32 even with everyting maxed out I couldn’t finish one of the races so I gave up on the game, I refused to use other car, I really like the R32.
What if the cutest gear IS the meta?! Never say never
This is me in any game too. If the game offers you a bunch of alternatives but makes it impossible/insufferable to play outside the meta, then the game is not worth my time. I should play a game the way I want, not the way the developer decides to force even though they gave me other alternatives.
Now I wonder, who is the cutest merc in team fortress 2? Maybe pyro?
As long as he keeps the helmet on
What is meta ~ just enjoy the best.
This is why I thank gods there are guides etc. for Genshin… I’d never be able to get that this character works better using only their skill instead of using their sword, etc etc.
wtf is “the meta”?
Edit: thanks for all of the excellent replies!
While Million’s explanation is good, I’d like to try my own phrasing:
In this context, setting up your character’s armor by ‘the meta’ would basically mean picking the armor with the best stats, that maybe synergize with each other and/or the playstyle/class build that is the most overpowered, most broken.
You could maybe call that ‘optimizing the fun out of the game’.
What this person, OP, is saying is… nah, I’m just gonna pick the armor/clothes I think look the best, knowing that will make things harder for me than just choosing the ‘optimal’ armor, and I’ll either git gud at the game, or die trying.
Its… kind of like how DBZ characters wear weighted clothes.
Its an intentional, chosen handicap, in a gameplay mechanics sense, that makes things more difficult, so training / playing the game is harder… but if you can handle it, you’re probably going to be better at the game.
OK, see, I understand that. I think the disconnect comes from the fact that I avoid multiplayer games, and even when I played them, I never talk to anyone else who’s playing.
I’m certainly familiar with this concept as a part of game design theory, and certainly in all of the games I’ve played. I’ve just never heard the term, and I think it’s just because I don’t talk to a lot of other gamers.
Thanks for the explanation!
Yep!
Its mostly a thing with multiplayer rpg type games, but, the term ‘the meta’ most broadly, at this point, basically just means ‘best strategy’.
You could have a meta in a shooter game, for gun/armor loadouts that go well with certain tactics, maybe fast ninja with smgs and flash bangs always beats tanky bomb diffusal armor with a mini gun, for some reason.
You could have it with dark souls type games, a single player (basically) game with a bunch of possible skill tree builds and classes and weapons and such.
But, linguistically, its also kind of weird because ‘the meta’ can also refer to… all of those possible strategies, at once, within one game… or even a similar class or family of games!
Or ‘a meta’ or ‘the XYZ meta’ could also refer to a singular strategy within a game, or maybe a family of related strategies within a game.
… It makes more sense if you just regularly hear people using the term outloud.
As a longtime gamer, I’m definitely familiar with the concept. I had just never heard it referred to as “the Meta” before
Thanks!
The meta in any given game is “the most effective tactic available” or just information acquired outside of the game to be efficient.
Like you could pick a class like warrior in some game and hours into playing realise that its the most difficult class to play, meanwhile the sorcerer is easy and good out the gate, so people would look up the best class/gear/shortcuts/exploits even before starting a game to be the most efficient, instead of just playing what they like.
The best/optimal items.
That’s pretty much what I thought from context, but where did the term come from?
Edit: thanks for all of the excellent replies!
Not sure, but it has been around for a long time (20+ years).
I guess because the “ideal” way to play is usually found out by theorycrafters so they aren’t playing the actual game, but the “meta game” of finding out how to best play the game.
Not only have I been gaming for 40+ years, I’ve written a bunch of games. I’ve never heard this term.
But I’ll take your word for it ;)
I remember it from early StarCraft, where balance patches would often “shift the meta” making some build and strategies so good (or bad) that you basically had to use them (or couldn’t use them) if you wanted to be competitive.
So, it was actually in the game? The term “Meta” in this context?
I’m curious about the origin of the term, so if it came from star craft, that would be the answer I’m looking for.
So, it was actually in the game? The term “Meta” in this context?
It’s more like knowing that “people online will do that, so I have to do this”. The mind game between the players. But I think you already got some better answers.
I don’t think it originated from StarCraft, that’s just where I recall first hearing it.
Been hearing this term for a long while. It’s specially prevalent in games where there’s a strong competitive scene or in games where you can practice min-maxxing. You won’t use the term (normally) in a game like The Sims or any other game where there is no “goal” to achieve; but if there is a goal (even just a boss fight) and there are multiple alternatives to tackle it, you will hear the term eventually.
Maybe that’s why I haven’t heard it… I do my best to avoid multiplayer games. Is it something one would only see/hear in multiplayer games? My interest is in the origin of the term.
In relation to gaming it gained popularity in 1995 (Magic the Gathering).
When I heard it used back in the days if collectible card games, it seemed like it was describing the abstract ‘game’ rather than a particular game between two players. So a particular card (or weapon or ship) can be good within a game, depending on your opponent or play style. But sometimes a card or strategy is found by the community to be highly effective so in the ‘metagame’ it comes to dominate.
New cards would come out and change the meta. Even if you don’t buy then or use them, knowing that they exist and are effective changes how other players build decks and so you might need to change your play style to adapt to the new metagame.
In another comment, someone referred to it as “the game beyond the game” that the term was actually short for a “metagame”.
While their explanation was more concise, you both definitely answered my question. Thank you.
Ah yes, concise is not my strength. I avoided getting into the etymology of ‘meta’ and how it comes from an ancient librarian dealing with untitled manuscripts… So thought I was doing well!
i’m actually quite familiar with ancient Latin and Greek. So I understand the etymology of the term. There’s a fine line between descriptive and verbose.
And nonetheless, thank you very much for your answer. And, in no way, was I making a criticism.
Btw, “meta-“ is the Ancient Greek prefix meaning “after” or “beyond”
The concept of “the meta” arises from the idea of players playing a metagame in which they’re picking strategies which work well against the strategies other players pick. The idea I think was that it wasn’t necessarily the best strategy, but it was one that reliably worked against those strategies others pick, so it highlights the possibility that there are unexplored strategies.
But because it identified popular strategies it became used just to mean that even in single player games where there is no metagame at all.
It comes from the word metagame, i.e. the game beyond the game. I think it originally comes from game theory (the field of mathematics), later it began to be used in both game development and game playing (with slightly different meanings).
Eureka! Now I’m definitely familiar with that concept as a part of game design theory, I just haven’t heard that term before.
This is exactly the answer I was looking for. Thank you.
Just one more aspect to add to the other replies that I didn’t see mentioned: the most common use of this is with online multiplayer games like Mobas (lol, dota2) or ability/arena shooters (overwatch, valorant), where the developer will actually make changes to the balance, or add/remove items, heroes, … Here “the meta” will often shift with any major patch. As an example, they might adjust the items that give health and/or armor because front liners aren’t effective enough, and maybe they overtune it a bit, leading to a “tank meta” because now tanky characters can fulfill roles they weren’t even intended for (just as a random example).
But also things like tabletop games (Warhammer) have seasonal rulesets where this can apply.
It can even apply to Singleplayer games like Baldurs Gate 3 (as a recent example). In these cases the meta often refers to very efficient, good working character builds (class selection, level order and items) that have usually been figured out by the community over time. In that case the meta is generally more fixed or stable, as the game doesn’t receive maybe balance updates every few months.
Short for “meta gaming” or “meta game”, which is essentially the identification and application of the various playing style archetypes that work best in any given game.
As others have said, it functionally means picking the most optimal strategies and/or equips, but it’s now somewhat archaic use was more like a scholarly examination/application of archetypes, playstyles, use-cases, and vulnerabilities/bugs/eccentricities that could be taken advantage of and brought together to make consistent winning strategies. There is rarely ever (probaly never, really) a meta that stays unchanged throughout its games history because meta is, in a way, an ever-ongoing conversation between the game, its players and, in some ways, the wider audience that both bring in.
Well balanced games with deep design choices often have sleeper strategies that, while available at release, are not necessarily noticed or honed until later on because they require a measure of abstract thought and/or an understanding of various other elements and the interplay they create under specific circumstances. In that it takes into account both refined knowledge and practical, creative application, “meta” is kind of that sweet spot between science and art that so many people get drawn to in so many other ways.
Edit: should have read more of these comments before jumping the gun. I dont think I’ve added anything that hasn’t already been said in some way or another. Oops
I appreciate the effort anyway. Thanks!
