Broadly speaking, you probably agree with the large majority of the views commonly attributed to whichever group you identify with - what are the exceptions? Something that if you mention without a caveat immediately makes people jump to conclusions or even attack you?
Well I guess it’s that I have a difficult time understanding trans folk. My belief is that we should be working towards accepting and loving our bodies regardless of how they are formed, with all of their flaws intact. I feel complicated towards cosmetic surgery as a result of this belief.
Obligatory caveat: I still love trans people, you’re ALL valid and I continue to learn from you.People that live as their chosen gender are happier. People who don’t are much more likely to kill themselves. Hard to argue with that.
I mean yeah, hard agree, but Trans people ain’t a monolith and I would like to learn more about them.
I would expand that to body modification in general. Tattoos, piercings, hair loss/removal treatments, shoe lifts, fake nails. Heck, you could even expand it to clothing and fashion.
For me it comes down to cost-benefit analysis. For me personally I find it pretty easy to change my mind, so that’s usually “cheaper” than trying to change my body. Or you could say that I don’t see much “benefit” to such changes to my appearance. To let go of my desire to appear a certain way, to stop caring about how others see me. Some might call that cis privelege, but I would argue it’s something most cis people (at least in the US) struggle with too.
With the people I hang out with, i’m usually the only one without piercings to tattoos. Often I’m the only person with naturally colored hair (I do hope I go grey before losing it because it would be pretty cool to look like an old wizard, but if I lose my hair first I’ll just embrace it).
At the same time, you could extend the conversation the other way to things like prosthetics. I just saw a meme on Lemmy yesterday about a closeted trans person who had a car accident with a moose and needed extensive surgery afterwords. So rather than restoring how they used to look they took the opportunity to fully transition. From my perspective, the opportunity cost of transitioning was lowered in that case.
I want to see humanity continue to pursue technology to reduce these costs though. People have been writing fiction for centuries about gender-swapping, even just for a couple of days. If there really was some magical pill that could swap your gender for a day or two, or was easily reversible, or if you could just transfer your brain between artificial bodies, I could see that leading to a lot more empathy in the world.
the thing is you won’t/don’t notice most trans people. they are living their lives not bothering anyone.
it’s just the extremist nutbags that get attention and kind of paint a poor picture of trans folks. i’ve known some very miserable and shitty trans people who are hard to forget, but i met a lot more i odn’t even remember because they never got in my face and bothered me or said crazy shit. but they are the same as any extremist/nutbag of any persuasion or identity who thinks anyone different than them is subhuman and they are the model for some master race.
Men aren’t the enemy of feminism and equality. It doesn’t matter what any man has done to you, being a bigot doesn’t fix it.
There are real problems in the world that benefit from attention. And most people prefer to waste their energy being mad at made up shit designed to make them hate their neighbors.
In America its still not ok to be an atheist. Truly weird that it is ok to be part of several different mutually exclusive cults who all believe things that if they were not connected to a proper religion would get you laughed at but if you don’t have a cult its not ok.
on the coasts nobody cares. you must be talking about the south. the majority of the population in cities in atheist or non-practicing.
This honestly just isn’t true 70% of the pop is still Christian.
I keep getting downvoted because I advocate always voting left. Even if currently the democrats aren’t left wing, they are more left than Republicans. And if you keep voting for the most left candidate then over time they’ll keep shifting more and more left. Republicans will learn they’ll never win unless they start moving left so they’ll move left, then the Democrats will move more left.
Letting republicans win because the current democrat isn’t left enough is, IMHO, stupid.
Thank God…. I hate the edgy leftists who think they’re being morally righteous by not voting or wasting their votes voting 3rd party. These people also never work on voting reform either which is essential in escaping our 2 party systems.
That we should renationalise all public services here in the UK. I genuinely believe that. I’m essentially a left of centre capitalist, but I believe private companies using shared national infrastructure for shareholder profit under the lie of ‘competition’ is bullshit.
Thames water was a clusterfuck
Its amazing all the different groups that want to hate, and argue, when someone admits that they believe in God.
Considering the death toll religion has wrecked across history I think it’s fair to dislike the practice in the modern day. Like, don’t get me wrong I really care about the canon of my favourite stories but I’d never launch a crusade over someone elses fan fic of it.
As Carlin said “when it comes to bullshit you have to stand in awe of religion.”
They pay no taxes, diddle kids, murdered millions…and you fucking show up to put MORE money in the collection plate‽ madness
It has a lot to do with religious folks labeling themselves as an oppressed minority while being an overwhelming majority with tremendous power worldwide, especially in political leadership. For Christians, it’s an immediate reflex response to what religious folks don’t recognize is blasphemy, bringing up religion as the answer to a question nobody asked. I recognize that I just posted an America-default comment.
You’re forgetting the fact that many Christian sects are minorities and often sects hate/persecute each other, especially historically. Christianity comes in about 45,000 flavors. And many of them are radically different from each other.
And if you’re not a member of one of those specific groups they all look pretty much the same, and express the behavior I described in my comment. They may use their “minority” status as a predicate to making war with each other, but that wasn’t what I was talking about.
Do all Asian people look the same to you too?
A belief system isn’t the same as a race, you jackass. People have control over what they believe. I’m well within my rights to discriminate against idiots for believing in fairy tales and attempting to persecute anyone who doesn’t believe the same fairly tales.
Some of us see how much damage magical thinking has done to humanity and the planet, I guess.
Dont carry that misunderstanding always. Believing in God =/ religion. Man made religion is what youre think of. It may not sound right to you, but God isnt about “religion” at all, but people certainly are.
Dont blame it on God, blame it on man’s lack of understanding/misunderstanding. Just because someone does something “in the name of God” doesnt mean it was God’s will, and by past accounts, is usually just an excuse to do what depravity one desires.
I don’t “blame God,” because that would be like blaming Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
And no I’m not just talking about man made religion, I’m talking about magical thinking.
It’s all man made, btw, but I honestly don’t feel like having that conversation with you today.
Phew…
It’s all man made, btw, but I honestly don’t feel like having that conversation with you today.
Proof of God right there.
Im kidding…
Sorry mate, I just find it important to believe true things.
That Lemmy can be just as bigoted, hostile, and close-minded as the sites it set out to replace; it drives out views which aren’t in line with the gestalt majority. This thread, then, mostly gets answers which are on the mildest end because those who actually hold opinions out of step with the majority know damn well not to speak up, or, well… be immediately othered.
Yeahs and people are on good behavior in posts like this. The “lemmy” doesn’t come out as much.
Oh man, to test this, just go somewhere and defend women. You’ll be destroyed.
gender war bullshit is bullshit.
lemmy is full of anti-men threads. there was a massive one a few days ago with 100s of comments. is that pro-woman?
I don’t know, personally I’m against anti-whatever nonsense. I’m not in any camp, but I will point out my gendered life experiences, because the often go against the popular grain of gender essentialism that many people are conceptual wedded to.
Care to provide specific examples? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just curious as to what things about this place that you consider to be “bigoted”. Because my experience has been that the opinions that aren’t tolerated here are themselves the bigoted opinions.
Look back on my profile at the recent comment where I mentioned Johnny Depp being a disgusting drunk rapist who groomed a woman half his age and sued her for defaming him when she spoke about the backlash she received for speaking out against his domestic abuse.
Lol what?? So they’re bigoted against what in this case?
Because my experience has been that the opinions that aren’t tolerated here are themselves the bigoted opinions.
This is a tautology. All you are saying here is ‘anything i declared bigoted shouldn’t be tolerated’.
other people may not agree with your interpretation of bigoted. I see all sorts of hateful bigoted crap on here, it’s just about what group it’s targeting. I got banned from Autism community because I pointed out their bigoted hatred of ‘normies’ was messed up and many members there had a weird superiority complex about autism.
All you are saying here is ‘anything i declared bigoted shouldn’t be tolerated’.
Yep. Basically this. And to bring it back around to OP’s question:
[Opinions] you mention without a caveat immediately makes people jump to conclusions or even attack you?
…well, it feels like this is a great example. Suggest that the fediverse has a bit of a bigotry problem, and you immediately get hit with an implication that no, everything is fine, if you’re not happy then you must actually be the bigot!
Turns out that people are assholes regardless of platform
in my experience that’s especially true of certain instances, but not others. mostly along ideological lines.
This thread, then, mostly gets answers which are on the mildest end because those who actually hold opinions out of step with the majority know damn well not to speak up, or, well… be immediately othered
Bigotry against the bigoted isn’t bigotry.
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Bigotry and prejudice is always bad, even if it’s not against a “protected class”. Hating on white people, straight people, cis people, men, or anyone else for the way they were born, what their ancestors did makes the world a worse place. Heck, “white” itself is a nebulous concept that changes over time and is different depending on which racist you’re talking to. Just because someone resembles your oppressor does not make them your enemy.
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Kind of related, but I don’t broadly judge categories of things. I was at a party recently and someone asked me if I liked anime, and I responded that I like some anime. Most of it I don’t like, but that’s not specific to anime. In my experience, roughly 80-90% of all media is somewhere between “garbage” and “mediocre”, and it’s the 10-20% at the top that I look for. A lot of my favorite bands happen to be metal, but I’m not going to like every band that uses distorted guitars.
Perhaps another way of phrasing it is that I usually find that the parameters which define genre are often separate from the parameters that determine my personal enjoyment.
My theory is that most people are more concerned with the social groups around media than the media itself.
what did they say after you said you liked anime?
Something along the lines of “well I actually don’t like anime!”. And started talking about how people expect him to be an anime fan, and how he lived in Japan for a while and liked manga a lot but not so much anime.
It was a a party with a lot of “alternative” people, most of whom probably would just say “yeah I like anime”. I think the guy was expecting me to say that so that he could that he could then subvert expectations, but my more neutral response kind of derailed things.
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I’m bullish on open borders. Not lack of sovereignty, and all fully documented. But if people are emigrating/immigrating “illegally”, there’s only one real solution. Tightening borders only benefits the well-off and slavers. Poor people are well aware it is possible to be poor in an MEDC. And mostly colder.
I get why the whole “colorblind” thing ended, but what we replaced it with is even worse.
That having a better education is directly tied to income levels, so talking down to ‘idiots’ is actually some bougie bullshit.
You’re not entirely wrong but their are outliers like me! I graduated top of my class from a boogie High School (the most expensive in CT) I dropped out of college and now work as a dishwasher, its the most fun I’ve had in my past decade of employment from various companies, and the best paying? Why does that happen? I’m being paid $18/hr to wash dishes, its my dream job (no customer interactions) I studied CS in college and I’m very literate in all computer related tech (Fuck AI)
throwing away opportunity is a lot easier than having none at all.
Lemmy is a website full of people who are left-populists on paper, but hate the population.
The average Lemmite should never be in charge of anything that their IT degree doesn’t qualify them for.
Lemmy wants the baby without the labor pains.
“Destroy Capitalism!”
“But what about the millions who will die in the ensuing chaos!?!”
“Well dont do it that way!”
“Which way then?”
“DESTROY CAPITALISM!”
Yeah the system is fucked and definitely needs change, but its either gradual or violent and as someone who came up with rough crowds in rough places. Most people arent cut out for when the actual violence starts.
practical and pragmatic reforms are boring. good policy making is boring.
hence why nobody gets excited by it. it’s much more exciting to sit around daydream about the revolution than get involved in community or political groups or read public policy white papers that report the cause and effect of policies in a complex manner.
I used to work in public policy. It was really cool, until you realize nobody gives a fuck about making the world better. especially the politicans. all they can about is riling people up emotionally.
all they can about is riling people up emotionally.
Damn, this shit goes all the way to the places where people signed up for boring policy work and can make a difference?
no, the policy nerds just want to to do good work. but good work isn’t politically viable. they also typically aren’t ideological because they are evidence-driven.
the politicians don’t care about it, all they want is soundbytes to ragebait their voters. they want the ‘evidence’ to proof D is good, R is bad. or vice versa.
IT degree
From my experience, that’s giving the average lemmite way to much credit.
I think trans athletes should be able to compete only in their assigned gender at birth category, if the sport is gender-segregated.
Yeah, I got into a discussion on this topic and my suggestion is that sports split on other categories, not just gender. Boxing already does weight classes, which is good, more sports should do that. Can’t we have sports for people under 5’8"? I’m sure there’s lots of shortkings who’d love to compete seriously in a league where there height wasnt an detriment.
This approach seemed to offend both sides of the trans sports debate.
and we divide a lot of youth sports by age categories, and often kids who are more/less developed get bumped into the more appropriate age bracket. it’s bullshit (and dangerous) to have a 12 year old who is 150 lbs and in puberty playing with other 12 year olds who are 100 and pre pubescent.
I don’t think that those are the same position.
Let’s update our understanding and use other more meaningful categories that better reflect people’s lived experiences is a good idea. Let’s confine our understanding and hold people in rigid categories that often do not match their lived experiences is not.
John Oliver also has a good segment on this topic, if you’re interested.
Also, one could listen to someone such as Erin in the morning to understand the context of the anti-trans sports campaign.
Some of what Erin describes here is that much of the current anti-trans efforts are being funded and pushed by many of the same religious fundamentalist groups that previously pushed “defense of marriage” campaigns and and legislation against gay people.
The market research that these groups have used since losing that debate have shown them that religious arguments against inclusion are generally unpopular. So now they’ve made a very deliberate, and rather successful, effort to repackage their agenda through the sports topic instead.
Yes, but the thing you’re missing is how much of USA culture is tied up in sports. Including college admissions through popular team sports. This topic hits a lot broader because it’s about sports, and shitloads of money.
Hence nobody cares if there are trans people in niche sports with no money. For example, I mountain bike. Nobody cares, because mountain biking is increidbly niche and there zero money in and and there are like 13 NCAA mountain biking teams in the country… and if you win a competitive mtb race you win like $100.
But if it’s Basketball… we’re talking billions of dollars.
I come from a family of many female athletes. They aren’t anti trans or religionous but they are anti-trans women in women’s sports. They believe in a separate trans/non-gender category, but that’s not a solution trans-advocates want. They want trans women to be in women’s sports, and not men’s sports. (and of course, nobody cares about trans men)
Transgender ladies who are on oestrogen and testosterone blockers aren’t any stronger or faster than cis ladies.
Gender affirming surgery for trans women often includes bone shaving in various locations because your skeleton does not substantially change in response to your hormones. Hormone treatment does not affect your skeleton.
Also, in the same way that it is easier for people who have lost weight to put that weight back on because they already have those extra fat cells, people who lose muscle mass will have an easier time gaining muscle back because they already have those extra muscle cells.
That very much depends on the timing of the hormonal treatment. Transwomen treated with puberty blockers in their teens and estrogen dominant HRT after they reach the age of majority will have different bone structure than if they had gone through testosterone dominant puberty.
Gender-affirming care massively reduces the difference, but transwomen are still likely to be faster than AFAB women:
Prior to gender affirming hormones, transwomen performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in 1 min and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster than their female counterparts. After 2 years of taking feminising hormones, the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared but transwomen were still 12% faster. Prior to gender affirming hormones, transmen performed 43% fewer push-ups and ran 1.5 miles 15% slower than their male counterparts. After 1 year of taking masculinising hormones, there was no longer a difference in push-ups or run times, and the number of sit-ups performed in 1 min by transmen exceeded the average performance of their male counterparts.
But what season you’re born in also influences your strength and fitness:
There were significant main effects of birth-month for cardiorespiratory fitness (F=4.54, p<0.001), strength (F=6.81, p<0.001) and power (F=3.67, p<0.001). Children born in November were fitter and more powerful than those born at other times, particularly the summer months (April, May and June). October-born children were stronger than those born in all months except September and November. This relationship was evident despite controlling for decimal age and despite no significant inter-month differences in anthropometric characteristics.
So maybe it’s not fair for all those poor summer babies to compete against unfairly blessed autumn athletes?
There’s enough biological diversity that fairness is basically an illusion anyway. I don’t care enough about sports to have a strong opinion. I think it’s fine to say giving up competitive sports is a cost of gender transition. I might think it’s also fine to let trans athletes compete except I would hate it if the women’s league became the trans league or if poor young kids felt pressure to transition in order to compete at a higher level and get life-changing scholarships or even a professional career.
Is that a legitimate fear? Maybe not. At the end of the day, I rarely watch sports. I would support letting them compete and seeing if it is a problem before passing laws to fix issues that don’t actually exist.
I think it’s fine to say giving up competitive sports is a cost of gender transition.
Yeah, I agree. This is a take I rarely see. And it’s just… a choice lots of kids make regardless of their gender identity for lots of social or physical reasons. I’ve known people who had accidents, then pulled out of it for fear of permanent physical harm. Lots of people also would love to play, but physically are unable to due to a too much/too little body mass for that sport. You can’t be a football offensive lineman if you weigh 120lbs and are 5’2". My nephew spent years training for baseball and was very good, but he physically wasn’t large enough to be competitive, so he had to give it up.
The notion that one MUST be able to play competitive sports is so… bizarre to me. If they can compete, great. But if they are wiping the floor with their peers because of their physical advantages… they should probably be playing as a man w/ men. And that’s not unprecedented. We had a few larger/stronger women play with boys when I was growing up and everyone was cool with it.
I think, and this may be a wild concept that bothers both sides of the discussion, that individual sports governing bodies (specific leagues, NCAA, etc) should be making the decisions and absolutely nobody in government should be involved.
People should be allowed to compete in sports, but it should be up to the individual sports governing body to decide how they slot people. And if there is an absolute ban in the league against use of hormones (aimed at preventing performance enhancing effects), then so be it. Those bans were in place prior to the trans people in sports discussion, I wouldn’t say they are inherently biased. Take up the language of the rule with your local league to allow for medically necessary hormones for specific issues (including gender dysmorphia), but it is ultimately their prerogative on rules for their league. A senator doesn’t need to weigh in.
But any poltician who so much as brings up trans people in sports should be immediately told to stay in their fucking lane.
I think sports governing bodies should be able to determine this for themselves and their particular sport. But that’s a little too pragmatic for a lot of folks.
But yeah, this gets you labeled an anti-trans bigot these days. Despite the fact practically speaking the particularities are involve really can’t be generalized. In some cases there will be a unfair advantage, in others, not.
I think violence should be the last resort, not the first, when speaking of revolution.
My sincerest wish is that you’re correct. And to see it come true, of course.
I don’t think AI is the devil. Liberals/leftists are frightening lately over this topic, in a way that is increasingly difficult to construe as anything other than garden-variety technophobia and anti-intellectualism.
People jump to crazy conclusions when they learn why I never had children. They think I’m a eugenicist because I made a decision for myself even though I specifically don’t give a fuck what others do.
Liberals/leftists get strangely aggressive about wanting a cure for my genetic disorder. This apparently also makes me a eugenicist.
I don’t identify myself with any side in politics. Why pick a side when every side is shit.
The thing that spurred me into paying more attention to things politically, was the thought that, you can’t complain if you don’t vote. If you’re upset with the system, but do nothing, even the bare fucking minimum of showing up and voting, then your complaint really doesn’t matter.
You can also just pick and choose what you want from each and every side, and leave what you don’t like on the table.
Like a buffet.
But people tend to get really really angry at you when you do this, and label you whatever side they hate most.
