That’s disgusting and all, but 15 and 20 years is a little excessive, no? I’m from a country without mass incarceration or private prisons, but you don’t need nearly that much for people to learn their lesson
murder is cheap I guess. meanwhile being a pedophile rapist that can reveal most politicians and CEOs as also pedophile rapists is a death suicide sentence
Fair point, Epstein was taken out. However a disgusting orange blob can also become president of the united state of fascism using that very same information and tactics.
It’s not that “murder is cheap”, it’s that many countries figured out that holding a person indefinitely in prison doesn’t do anything for their rehabilitation, only puts money in the prison’s owner’s pocket.
The point of most European prisons is to get the prisoner to understand and repent their crime, teach them some useful skills, and send them back to be a productive member of society. The point of US prisons is to just eliminate a person from public life in revenge.
Good luck with this one. The American idea of adjudication for crime is so utterly fucked by indoctrination from decades of propaganda for privatized prison systems. It doesn’t matter if you point out that lengthy prison sentences do nothing to serve the public good, that research shows they do essentially nothing in terms of serving as a deterrent, that encouraging rehabilitation and correcting systemic issues that lead to crime would be the thing to truly address these issues. Let alone the systemic issues abound in the American justice system; that enforcement of crimes are disproportionately skewed to impact people of low SES and minority status, that this whole system is a front to enable modern day slavery.
Ultimately these people are just bloodthirsty and this gives them an outlet for that. They are vindictive and want an outlet for revenge fantasies. Just mention sex offenders and see how they become awful right wing weirdos with violent torture fantasies out of a saw movie.
it’s about sending a message, and protecting the public. not rehabilitation.
this is the core difference between European prisons and US prisons.
I bet people in your country don’t go violently brandishing guns around at children, but if someone did you would probably feel like 15-20 years wasn’t enough.
Put it this way: not only being a direct risk of death to everyone there by pointing a firearm at them but also advocating the death, exile, or enslavement of everyone of the same race.
I’d just add up all the years of the lives they threatened at the party. I wouldn’t even be opposed to hanging them, since they were waving enemy flags.
Without any other details, yes, those are absurdly long sentences. Sending a tough message would be like 5 years maybe? Anyone supporting this kind of sentencing deserves a longer prison term than the couple.
I was about to say that I don’t think their political beliefs should affect their sentencing. But I guess it does point to the likelihood of recurrence, which should affect the sentencing.
I’m glad I’m not a judge. This sort of decision would keep me up at night.
I just saw your other comment. Lmao it is a new one that you bottom of the barrel worthless dumbfuck fake leftists would call your moral and intellectual superior a fascist for advocating for less prison time.
edit: actually this does not refer to who you were referring to. He seems more like your typical Usian liberal.
If I had to place a bet, I would replace “Americans” with “Russian Trolls”. You look at this guy’s account, all he does is stir up shit. I honestly have trouble believing that anyone in the USA has the time to sit and troll all day. That requires a wage, such as they exist in St. Petersburg.
They were waving around guns. That is assault by threatening someone’s life. Also complete disregard for public safety. It is a felony just brandishing a gun when not threatened yourself.
Even still if there’s no other record of violent behavior I imagine barring them from firearm possession, 5 years in prison, and 5 years probation would do the trick.
All punitive justice is good for is giving more slaves to the prison complex. Rehabilitation is better for everyone. It’s not only cheaper but also creates better (ie safer) outcomes for society.
After 20 years what will they even have to live for anymore? This is why people re-offend.
You’re correct, but anyone from the US, whether they’re on the furthest right or the furthest left, is going to have an incredibly hard time understanding why. Their country is deeply indoctrinated with this notion that anything less than the death penalty is basically a slap on the wrist, and even the progressive segments of their populace have mostly failed to ever meaningfully address or deconstruct this sentiment. Left/right disagreements over justice in the US tend to look more like disagreements over which things you should get put in prison for life for, rather than positing that such extensive prison terms being normal across the board might not be healthy for a society.
What this couple did is horrific, and it deserves a very serious penalty, and the problem then becomes that because the bar for “Very serious penalty” is set at “Spend most of your life in prison”, arguing for anything less than that feels like siding with these monsters against their victims.
American here as well. Prison reform is needed, it’s modern slavery. But these people are Nazis and I do feel no remorse being intolerant of their actions in society. Rehabilitation or exile I do think are appropriate ways forward. It’s not the people that aren’t reasonable, it’s our laws and two tiered justice system.
This isn’t an example of that. My alternatives were rehabilitation or exile, which I suppose could be argued isn’t reform as we’ve exiled people as punishment for like as long as we’ve been people, but I’m really having a hard time seeing how I said “except in the case of x” I said you should be mean to Nazis, not lock them up for life.
I never said to tolerate their actions. I said the punishment does not fit the crime and better serves feeding the prison system slaves.
Some people take the idea of not tolerating intolerance to mean we ourselves must become the fascists. I reject that. We don’t have to go high when they go low but we certainly shouldn’t go lower when they go low.
Now of course big fucking astrix for our current situation. Revolution is starting to look like our only way out of the current administration.
But on the topic of prison reform that’s a bit different.
Also exile is just a terrible idea, and it’s a very antiquated one. Arguably the way it was presented was just an extension of colonialist/imperialist ideal. “Hello poor nation we’ve decided to ship you our undesirables. Good luck with that”
Sorry I didn’t mean to imply that you were tolerating their actions lol. I agree that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.
My idea of exile, just a thought in my head, would be that it would be a choice to go through rehabilitation or leave society. If a person refuses to stop being intolerant, what is the solution? They can refuse treatment, act in bad faith, and I don’t think forcing compliance ever helped anything. So what do we do?
I get that exile is kind of a terrible antiquated idea, but if we cannot tolerate intolerance and the offender refuses to change what is the solution?
I get that exile is kind of a terrible antiquated idea, but if we cannot tolerate intolerance and the offender refuses to change what is the solution?
You add more time in prison. If you keep re-offending and are a harm to society you will start to spend more time in prison.
But you’ll find the vast majority of people want to be productive and even those that are more self centered will generally take the opportunity to be a better member of society even if it’s just to avoid more prison. If you start with massive penalties then you never even gave that person a chance.
If a person refuses to stop being intolerant, what is the solution?
It’s not about controlling people’s thoughts. It’s about ensuring that their actions aren’t illegal. If they want to hold onto hate their whole life that’s their choice. As long as they aren’t harming others they can still carry their prejudice.
Break the law again though you go back to prison.
But when you put someone in our current prison system for 20 years you’re basically ensuring they will commit a crime again. You’re taking away their chance to be a productive member of society, essentially enslaving them, and all of this comes at a great monetary cost to the taxpayer.
Are you claiming that actually everyone in America agrees with you on this point, or are you simply agreeing with me, in a very roundabout way, that talking to Americans about prison reform is incredibly difficult and that you and your friends represent the rare exceptions?
We don’t have a system of rehabilitative justice and we’re not going to start having one any time soon, so the options available to us for dealing with these shitbags are either lock them up or let them keep doing what they’re doing, I think preferring option 1 is extremely reasonable
The ability for a human to change is one of the few things I believe about humanity.
Everyone deserves that chance, but he should still recieve a stiff punishment.
When you put people in jail for these incredibly long periods they will re-offend. Honestly if you had hate in your heart sit in jail for 20 to 50 years after you get out what do you have left to lose? He didn’t show up and start murdering people, but if the punishment is the same maybe he’ll just go ahead and do it when he gets out. Nothing to lose anymore.
With a shorter sentence he still has a life worth living and is less likely to re-offend.
You’d be surprised how good people can be if you give them the chance. I’m not saying he shouldn’t go to prison, he definitely deserves some time. I’m just saying let’s deal in facts and do what we know reduces re-offense rates. Let’s give humanity a chance. You’d be surprised how many racists can and do change. I remember watching a documentary about a guy that spent his free time talking with members of the KKK and slowly de-programming them. This guy was a POC too. If he can bridge that gap I’m sure the rest of us can too.
If we had anything resembling a reliable system for rehabilitation of violent ideologues in this country your plan would be a good one, but we don’t so it isn’t. Not a false dichotomy, just one you don’t like. I’m on ML because communism is the future, the present is dogshit and our options are dogshit.
You forgot the real option. Which is supporting reasonable sentences focused on rehabilitation.
There are very few offenses where a human deserves to be locked up for 20 years.
Also let’s not pretend you wanted to imprison them indefinitely. You wanted to deport them, mutilate them, and dump them on a poor nation. You either didn’t care or think about whether or not these African nations want our criminals, but what they think doesn’t matter right? As long as you hurt the right people?
That’s not even getting into the American centrism that assumes people in Africa know all about the American civil war
Those kids will never feel safe walking around. Every time someone raises their voice, they have to wonder, “Was this directed at me? Am I going to die?” They will look at their skin and wonder what they did to deserve this. The hate. The threat of violence. At a birthday, where people celebrate.
This trauma lasts longer than their prison sentence.
armred robbery, threatening to kill are all felonies they carry heftier sentences. the woman was later released early, like within the few months of being charged.
If someone waved a gun at my kid and threatened to kill him, I’d want that person incarcerated for at least 15 years.
My kid has a right to feel safe around his own home / neighborhood. Nobody has the right to make him feel like his life is in direct danger from them, just for being outdoors.
That’s disgusting and all, but 15 and 20 years is a little excessive, no? I’m from a country without mass incarceration or private prisons, but you don’t need nearly that much for people to learn their lesson
Did you miss the part at the bottom where they were using guns to threaten them?
15 years is the maximum¹ sentence for murder over here. Armed threats are a serious offense but not to this extent.
¹ you may be kept longer for security reasons if a judge deems you to pose a threat after that time.
murder is cheap I guess. meanwhile being a pedophile rapist that can reveal most politicians and CEOs as also pedophile rapists is a
deathsuicide sentenceFair point, Epstein was taken out. However a disgusting orange blob can also become president of the united state of fascism using that very same information and tactics.
It’s not that “murder is cheap”, it’s that many countries figured out that holding a person indefinitely in prison doesn’t do anything for their rehabilitation, only puts money in the prison’s owner’s pocket.
The point of most European prisons is to get the prisoner to understand and repent their crime, teach them some useful skills, and send them back to be a productive member of society. The point of US prisons is to just eliminate a person from public life in revenge.
Good luck with this one. The American idea of adjudication for crime is so utterly fucked by indoctrination from decades of propaganda for privatized prison systems. It doesn’t matter if you point out that lengthy prison sentences do nothing to serve the public good, that research shows they do essentially nothing in terms of serving as a deterrent, that encouraging rehabilitation and correcting systemic issues that lead to crime would be the thing to truly address these issues. Let alone the systemic issues abound in the American justice system; that enforcement of crimes are disproportionately skewed to impact people of low SES and minority status, that this whole system is a front to enable modern day slavery.
Ultimately these people are just bloodthirsty and this gives them an outlet for that. They are vindictive and want an outlet for revenge fantasies. Just mention sex offenders and see how they become awful right wing weirdos with violent torture fantasies out of a saw movie.
But have you considered: systematic prison violence and rape = funny?
It’s not cruel or unusual if it’s only encouraged, not done, by the state.
And the legal slavery, dont forget about the legalized slavery. The north may have won our civil war, but the south won the peace.
Murder isnt just cheap in the US, it’s highly prized. They fetishise their military over there. Private companies employ armed guards. Its sick.
Tbf I didn’t see the bottom part until much later.
it’s about sending a message, and protecting the public. not rehabilitation.
this is the core difference between European prisons and US prisons.
I bet people in your country don’t go violently brandishing guns around at children, but if someone did you would probably feel like 15-20 years wasn’t enough.
Combined. Read the article
Put it this way: not only being a direct risk of death to everyone there by pointing a firearm at them but also advocating the death, exile, or enslavement of everyone of the same race.
I’d just add up all the years of the lives they threatened at the party. I wouldn’t even be opposed to hanging them, since they were waving enemy flags.
Imagine being this pro slavery without realizing you’re being pro slavery
I think he and she realize but hard to tell, conservatives are dumb as bricks.
Without any other details, yes, those are absurdly long sentences. Sending a tough message would be like 5 years maybe? Anyone supporting this kind of sentencing deserves a longer prison term than the couple.
I suspect you are still a child yourself, but if you had children, visualize someone waving a gun in their face and threatening to kill them.
You’re lying to someone, or else you are too young to really understand what has taken place here.
I love your argument of “you’re a child” instead of the fact that your superior is correct and you are a bottom of the barrel moron.
15 years for assaulting children seems appropriate.
If you’re an authoritarian fascist lunatic, absolutely.
I was about to say that I don’t think their political beliefs should affect their sentencing. But I guess it does point to the likelihood of recurrence, which should affect the sentencing.
I’m glad I’m not a judge. This sort of decision would keep me up at night.
What a wonderful argument, definitely not fash sounding at all.
I hope you mean the people advocating for long prison sentences for them because if not, you’re the dumbest human being alive.
I just saw your other comment. Lmao it is a new one that you bottom of the barrel worthless dumbfuck fake leftists would call your moral and intellectual superior a fascist for advocating for less prison time.
Lawl, banned!
In America prisoners get lots of time off their sentences for good behavior. He could be out in 8-10 years if he doesn’t get in trouble in prison.
They threatened children with guns.
Yeah, this wasn’t idle threatening behavior. This is the kind of behavior that if the police were involved would shoot the PoC on the spot.
Edit: There is no reasoning with Americans on this topic. It makes me sad. What a shithole country
Lol cry about it shitwit
edit: actually this does not refer to who you were referring to. He seems more like your typical Usian liberal.
If I had to place a bet, I would replace “Americans” with “Russian Trolls”. You look at this guy’s account, all he does is stir up shit. I honestly have trouble believing that anyone in the USA has the time to sit and troll all day. That requires a wage, such as they exist in St. Petersburg.
No.
They were waving around guns. That is assault by threatening someone’s life. Also complete disregard for public safety. It is a felony just brandishing a gun when not threatened yourself.
Even still if there’s no other record of violent behavior I imagine barring them from firearm possession, 5 years in prison, and 5 years probation would do the trick.
All punitive justice is good for is giving more slaves to the prison complex. Rehabilitation is better for everyone. It’s not only cheaper but also creates better (ie safer) outcomes for society.
After 20 years what will they even have to live for anymore? This is why people re-offend.
You’re correct, but anyone from the US, whether they’re on the furthest right or the furthest left, is going to have an incredibly hard time understanding why. Their country is deeply indoctrinated with this notion that anything less than the death penalty is basically a slap on the wrist, and even the progressive segments of their populace have mostly failed to ever meaningfully address or deconstruct this sentiment. Left/right disagreements over justice in the US tend to look more like disagreements over which things you should get put in prison for life for, rather than positing that such extensive prison terms being normal across the board might not be healthy for a society.
What this couple did is horrific, and it deserves a very serious penalty, and the problem then becomes that because the bar for “Very serious penalty” is set at “Spend most of your life in prison”, arguing for anything less than that feels like siding with these monsters against their victims.
I’m an American though, and many of my friends agree with me on the topic of prison reform
American here as well. Prison reform is needed, it’s modern slavery. But these people are Nazis and I do feel no remorse being intolerant of their actions in society. Rehabilitation or exile I do think are appropriate ways forward. It’s not the people that aren’t reasonable, it’s our laws and two tiered justice system.
See, this is an excellent example of the point I just made.
Even when people say “I want prison reform” they inevitably always have some kind of carve out for “Except in the case of X.”
Which means you don’t actually have a problem with the current system. You just have a problem with who it gets applied to.
This isn’t an example of that. My alternatives were rehabilitation or exile, which I suppose could be argued isn’t reform as we’ve exiled people as punishment for like as long as we’ve been people, but I’m really having a hard time seeing how I said “except in the case of x” I said you should be mean to Nazis, not lock them up for life.
I never said to tolerate their actions. I said the punishment does not fit the crime and better serves feeding the prison system slaves.
Some people take the idea of not tolerating intolerance to mean we ourselves must become the fascists. I reject that. We don’t have to go high when they go low but we certainly shouldn’t go lower when they go low.
Now of course big fucking astrix for our current situation. Revolution is starting to look like our only way out of the current administration.
But on the topic of prison reform that’s a bit different.
Also exile is just a terrible idea, and it’s a very antiquated one. Arguably the way it was presented was just an extension of colonialist/imperialist ideal. “Hello poor nation we’ve decided to ship you our undesirables. Good luck with that”
Sorry I didn’t mean to imply that you were tolerating their actions lol. I agree that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.
My idea of exile, just a thought in my head, would be that it would be a choice to go through rehabilitation or leave society. If a person refuses to stop being intolerant, what is the solution? They can refuse treatment, act in bad faith, and I don’t think forcing compliance ever helped anything. So what do we do?
I get that exile is kind of a terrible antiquated idea, but if we cannot tolerate intolerance and the offender refuses to change what is the solution?
You add more time in prison. If you keep re-offending and are a harm to society you will start to spend more time in prison.
But you’ll find the vast majority of people want to be productive and even those that are more self centered will generally take the opportunity to be a better member of society even if it’s just to avoid more prison. If you start with massive penalties then you never even gave that person a chance.
It’s not about controlling people’s thoughts. It’s about ensuring that their actions aren’t illegal. If they want to hold onto hate their whole life that’s their choice. As long as they aren’t harming others they can still carry their prejudice.
Break the law again though you go back to prison.
But when you put someone in our current prison system for 20 years you’re basically ensuring they will commit a crime again. You’re taking away their chance to be a productive member of society, essentially enslaving them, and all of this comes at a great monetary cost to the taxpayer.
Are you claiming that actually everyone in America agrees with you on this point, or are you simply agreeing with me, in a very roundabout way, that talking to Americans about prison reform is incredibly difficult and that you and your friends represent the rare exceptions?
Your comment made it sound like you believed no American would agree with prison reform.
I thought this was amusing since you were replying to an American that at least associates with many that agree with me on prison reform.
To make the argument more direct I’d say you’ll find a lot of Americans on the left that want a reform of our justice system
We don’t have a system of rehabilitative justice and we’re not going to start having one any time soon, so the options available to us for dealing with these shitbags are either lock them up or let them keep doing what they’re doing, I think preferring option 1 is extremely reasonable
Well no, you could have given them a more reasonable sentence.
By putting them in prison for 20 years you’re basically garunteeing they commit more crime when they get out. Congrats you’ve made society less safe.
Cool story, but as I said our reality is unfortunately limited to two shitty options and your idea isn’t one of them
Unfortunately my original idea working within the system was ban on firearm ownership, 5 years prison, and 5 years probation.
Plenty punitive, but at least gives them a chance of reforming a life afterwards. Works completely fine without giving in to your false dichotomy
Honestly why are you even from .ml?
Also in case you’re confused when I said rehabilitative justice is better that was entirely separate from my suggested sentence
There’s no reforming from being a racist shitbag that threatens kids with guns. He can rot in prison for 50 years for all I care.
The ability for a human to change is one of the few things I believe about humanity.
Everyone deserves that chance, but he should still recieve a stiff punishment.
When you put people in jail for these incredibly long periods they will re-offend. Honestly if you had hate in your heart sit in jail for 20 to 50 years after you get out what do you have left to lose? He didn’t show up and start murdering people, but if the punishment is the same maybe he’ll just go ahead and do it when he gets out. Nothing to lose anymore.
With a shorter sentence he still has a life worth living and is less likely to re-offend.
You’d be surprised how good people can be if you give them the chance. I’m not saying he shouldn’t go to prison, he definitely deserves some time. I’m just saying let’s deal in facts and do what we know reduces re-offense rates. Let’s give humanity a chance. You’d be surprised how many racists can and do change. I remember watching a documentary about a guy that spent his free time talking with members of the KKK and slowly de-programming them. This guy was a POC too. If he can bridge that gap I’m sure the rest of us can too.
If we had anything resembling a reliable system for rehabilitation of violent ideologues in this country your plan would be a good one, but we don’t so it isn’t. Not a false dichotomy, just one you don’t like. I’m on ML because communism is the future, the present is dogshit and our options are dogshit.
Yeah there are still more than 2 options. Mine is completely reasonable.
The stance of “the prison complex should be given a slave to make as much profit as possible, but yeah I’m a communist” is absolutely wild
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God your persecution fetish is weird. You would’ve vibed with the Puritans
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You forgot the real option. Which is supporting reasonable sentences focused on rehabilitation.
There are very few offenses where a human deserves to be locked up for 20 years.
Also let’s not pretend you wanted to imprison them indefinitely. You wanted to deport them, mutilate them, and dump them on a poor nation. You either didn’t care or think about whether or not these African nations want our criminals, but what they think doesn’t matter right? As long as you hurt the right people?
That’s not even getting into the American centrism that assumes people in Africa know all about the American civil war
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So repeating your points is “going off the deep end”? Sounds like you were already there
Those kids will never feel safe walking around. Every time someone raises their voice, they have to wonder, “Was this directed at me? Am I going to die?” They will look at their skin and wonder what they did to deserve this. The hate. The threat of violence. At a birthday, where people celebrate.
This trauma lasts longer than their prison sentence.
Source: me.
Yeah I’m not opposed to some involuntary rehabilitation given that they were threatening their victims with firearms, but 15 years is insane.
armred robbery, threatening to kill are all felonies they carry heftier sentences. the woman was later released early, like within the few months of being charged.
If someone waved a gun at my kid and threatened to kill him, I’d want that person incarcerated for at least 15 years.
My kid has a right to feel safe around his own home / neighborhood. Nobody has the right to make him feel like his life is in direct danger from them, just for being outdoors.