cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/55094518

“The UK government wants technology companies to block explicit images on phones and computers by default to protect children, with adults having to verify their age to create and access such content,” the FT report said. “Ministers want the likes of Apple and Google to incorporate nudity-detection algorithms into their device operating systems to prevent users taking photos or sharing images of genitalia unless they are verified as adults.”

  • SaraTonin@lemmy.world
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    They’re obviously going about it the wrong way, but this is inching towards the right way to go - keep age verification like biometric verification, encrypted and on-device. That’s a million times better than getting random pron sites to ask for your biometric data.

    If they’d started with this thought and then kept thinking from there, they could have ended up with something decent and effective, rather than the current shitshow.

    • Korhaka@sopuli.xyz
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      Make it the software that comes with the device. So Samsung can install some child protection app and we just uninstall it. Anything bad ever happens on a kids phone? Why did the parents uninstall it?

      Make the parents take the responsibility.

  • ThePyroPython@lemmy.world
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    Ahhhhhh just fuck off you useless cunts! Why don’t you fix the fact that we’ve got kids fucking starving in this country before worrying about if they’ve seen tits before they’re 18?!

    It’s dumb shit like this that is really pushing me to KMS once my mother has passed on. I can’t stand sharing oxygen with these morons.

    • TheHighRoad@lemmy.world
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      Honest question, but have you guys in the UK always been dealing with the conservative morality police or is this a more recent thing? As an American, these people have been a constant detriment to a functioning society for… ever?

      My understanding is that such forces have been comparatively insignificant in your country, but “comparatively insignificant” probably says more about how things are here than anything else.

      • AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net
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        My perception is that it’s gotten worse in recent years, but there’s always been a weird, socially conservative streak, especially amongst the powerful.

        I went to one of the super old, prestigious universities, and one of the most valuable things I learned there is that the British aristocracy is alive and well. We may not formally have a distinct noble class like there used to be, but in a way, we’re in a worse situation because we have so much of these entrenched systems that most people don’t know the half of. I think these kinds of people aren’t what you’re talking about when you mention the rise in the conservative mortality police, but it’s worth mentioning as one of the underlying factors.

        The recent wave of stuff is more linked to right wing populism. Nigel Farage is a big figure in that, and the rise of the rhetoric feels like it’s been happening in parallel to Trump’s rise.

        My belief about why this has been getting bad is that we had a Tory government for over a decade, starting in 2010, and their cuts had a terrible impact on the country as a whole. People who were living in precarity were increasingly fucked over, and as wealth continued to move upwards, the previously comfortable middle class were increasingly pushed into precarity. In terms of why the Tories were in power for so long, my opinion is that in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, they were able to convince people that a country’s finances were analogous to household finances, and thus deficits are bad, and that you can’t invest in infrastructure unless you’re running a surplus. If anything, this hindered the UK’s economy in recovering from the crisis.

        Labour didn’t provide a satisfying alternative to austerity, largely because under Blair, Labour had become increasingly neoliberal and distanced from its roots. In 2010, they campaigned on a platform of “we agree with all of the Conservative’s assumptions about how an economy should work, and that austerity is necessary, but we will do less austerity than they will”. If you believe that austerity is necessary, why on earth would you vote for that? They were Tory lite.

        And so large swathes of the UK public were effectively disenfranchised, because no-one they could vote for was actually offering something different to ease their socioeconomic suffering — except, of course, for UKIP (and the Greens, but they have always struggled to appeal to the mainstream). Especially under Farage, UKIP was effective at offering desperate people something different — something to blame for their struggles. Of course, blaming everything on immigration is bullshit and will, if anything, make people’s lives worse because of how much the economy depends on immigration, but it’s a problem of desperate people with insufficient class consciousness, who feel like they have no other choice.

        A longstanding cultural facet that underlies a lot of this is the idea of the “deserving poor”— an idea that we can trace right back to the Victorian poorhouse. Even when the UK has been more progressive (such as during a period known as the post-war consensus, which “tolerated or encouraged nationalisation, strong trade unions, heavy regulation, high taxes, and an extensive welfare state”[1]. I think this is somewhat analogous to the New Deal in American politics, though it happened later), there has still been a lot of moral ickiness tied into how we think about poverty. It’s the idea that people who are poor due to poor choices do not deserve support from the welfare state, and that it is necessary to prove that you deserve help. The fact that this is an idea deeply embedded in British culture has meant that the UK has long lagged behind much of Europe in terms of reducing poverty. [2]

        In the modern day, this means that if you want to get out-of-work benefits, you are expected to do an absurd amount of performative bullshit to show that you are searching for work. If you miss an appointment at the job centre, even due to circumstances that are not your fault (such as being hit by a car and hospitalised en route to the job centre), you can lose your benefits. You can appeal these things, but even if that’s successful, it takes an obscene amount of work. If you can’t work due to disability, then you will have to do even more work to demonstrate that this is the case, in a situation that can function like a catch-22 — too disabled to have the capacity to prove that you’re too disabled to work, so forced to do all the bullshit job hunting (which you obviously can’t do). They expect you to apply for, and work in jobs that are completely unsuited to your skill set. Like, if you have a specialised degree or skillset and your field is one where there are jobs, but it takes time for you to find openings, then fuck you, apply to be a janitor instead. There’s often been talking of policies that would involve people on out-of-work benefits being forced to do “voluntary” work in order to keep their benefits. I don’t think that’s currently in place, but it has always been disconcertingly popular a concept. The phrase “benefit scrounger” is a phrase that’s big in the British zeitgeist. Even people who rely on benefits of some sort like to think of themselves as being distinct in some way from “the bad kind of people” who get benefits. Even as those people are pushed further into precarity, they still maintain the idea that they are distinct somehow. Benefit fraud is such a tiny percentage of total welfare spending, and yet policies aimed to root out benefit fraud (which often cost more than they ever recoup, and primarily harm people who are not committing fraud of any sort) receive bipartisan support. The honest, struggling people who get caught in the crossfire of such policies are viewed as acceptable casualties.

        I mentioned above that I consider 2010 to be the start of a rise in the current trend of right wing populism, but another key “watershed” moment in my opinion was Margaret Thatcher in the 80s. Much like with Reagan, the political order that she was at the head of was ideological as much as it was economic or political. With her conservative government, she popularised the idea of “personal responsibility”, and severely exacerbated this notion of “the deserving poor”. Thatcher’s government is seen as the end of the post war consensus (which means a start to the withering of the welfare state)

        You know how earlier, I mentioned that Labour shot themselves in the foot in 2010 by yielding to the Tories and letting them define the parameters of politics wrt austerity? Well that comes on the back of Tony Blair’s Labour starting that whole ball rolling with a heckton of privatisation and deregulation in the 2000s. Margaret Thatcher once said that Tony Blair’s New Labour was her greatest achievement, and I wouldn’t disagree there. It’s honestly funny how often I delve into the history of a particular fucked up thing in the UK and find that a lot of it can be traced back to Thatcher. For example, recently I was learning about the history of fibre internet in the UK, and I learned that this was yet another area in which Thatcher’s government fucked things up. It’s always fucking Reagan and Thatcher.

        (Fun fact: when Thatcher died, the song “Ding dong the witch is dead” reached number 2 on the UK music charts)

        It’s sad to see it happen. I come from a poor area up North. Many of my ancestors were coal miners who lived and died in the mines. The retail park I used to hang out at as a teenager used to be a colliery — the colliery where the miners first began striking in 1984. This area is now has a high proportion of votes going to Reform (i.e. Nigel Farage’s party, basically post-Brexit UKIP). I used to regard people who voted like that with disdain, because I subconsciously blamed them for their lack of class consciousness. Nowadays, I’m more able to feel compassion for them, and their desperation. I think modern society makes it very hard to build class consciousness and solidarity, and so right wing reactionary politics ends up feeling like the only option they have. After all, the miner’s strike failed. Entire communities fell into destitution and it felt like no-one with any power cared. In a sense, the current political situation feels inevitable.

        This is why people like Mamdani, Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn give me hope. Sanders and Corbyn weren’t successful in their respective bids for power to enact their policies, but I remember how hopeful people felt during Corbyn’s rise. People who previously had completely disengaged from politics were suddenly getting involved, and it felt like there was hope. Of course, establishment politicians went and fucked it all up, but it still stands out to me as an example of how desperate people are for an alternative to the current status quo. People are sick of being told that the economy is going great, even as their lives and their communities are falling apart.


        [1]: Source for quote: Wikipedia page on the Post-war consensus

        [2]: further reading on how the myth of the deserving poor has caused the UK to lag behind Europe


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        • TheHighRoad@lemmy.world
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          16 hours ago

          Thank you for this detailed and ignorance-destroying response. The whole welfare queen/deserving poor mentality does seem to lie at the foundation of the struggle. I guess it’s just human nature.

          Your comments on how your disdain has shifted to compassion convicts me. I’m not there yet, but I’ve been trying to make that phase transition since last November. Hate certainly isn’t going to fix anything.

    • sleen@lemmy.zip
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      The only thing that’s important for them and their ego is hallucinating problems and making up solutions which benefit nobody.

      We live in an age where children and teens are getting their rights stripped because of said perceived “dangers” - real effort being done into something that will harm everybody. While realistic problems such as starvation and poverty get swept up under the rug.

      • ThePyroPython@lemmy.world
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        Look I’m just fed up with dealing with the slow burning of everything around me all because about a dozen people want extra zeros on their net worth and are tempting politicians to implement draconian laws with comparitivly miniscule bribes and I am obligated to spend 1/3 of my life and 2/3rds of my income satiating the desires of these bastards.

        Fuck em. I’m done. I want peace, permanent peace.

        • Passerby6497@lemmy.world
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          I fear it won’t be long before people decide to an hero in a spectacular way against their local fascist strongholds for the same reasons you outline.

          At some point, people are going to have nothing to lose and the desire to send a message to those in power.

          • IronBird@lemmy.world
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            wont be long, we’re about to have a bubble-pop/crash to rival 2000-2008 combined, anyone with exposure to US markets gonna have a bad time

        • evilcultist@sh.itjust.works
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          Every person against this sort of thing that checks out is just giving them less resistance. It sucks to have to deal with it, and it’s a constant fight, but you’re not just fighting for yourself.

          • ThePyroPython@lemmy.world
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            I’m sick of trying to educate people to see the bleeding obvious robbery of our lives when they’d rather blame their neighbours just because they have a different skin tone and it’s less effort mentally than trying to understand the situation with all the neuances. I’m sick of fighting and struggling for a better life for them as well because they don’t even want it. What’s the point of putting in the effort when these ignorant fools don’t even help and actively work against their own interests?

            I’m mentally and physically exhausted, and I just want to sleep forevermore.

            • evilcultist@sh.itjust.works
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              That’s when you take a break and let someone else deal with it until you’re ready again. Or focus on a different fight and let that one go. You’re irreplaceable, but your participation in that specific fight is not essential.

              I hope you can find a break. I get tired of it, too. Sometimes just not reading the news or social media for a while is enough to recharge. The news and online commentary makes it impossible to even get small breaks that would’ve been common two decades ago and the consumption of it all can be exhausting enough to prevent us from taking any other actions.

              • Emotional_Series7814@kbin.melroy.org
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                I really never should have opened this thread, but hard agree. I’m doing the small bit I can to help out and I only have that energy because I (mostly) stopped clicking on news and aggressively curated my online experience to be free of politics or depressing news. It’s easier to fight the good fight when you are not constantly being shown 28483838 bad things and 28483838 fights to fight. Even without algorithms that want to maximize engagement and that thus maximize outrage, human nature tends to focus on the bad and engage with outraging things (which is why A Bad Thing Happened constantly dominates Technology feeds instead of spiels about this or that tech advancement). If seeing all this paralyzes you into despair and/or doomscrolling like it paralyzes me, you have to actively try to work against that tendency or just try to avoid getting shown outrage in the first place.

  • Pacattack57@lemmy.world
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    I will never buy a device that cockblocks me. I was talking shit about the nothing phone yesterday but I guess imma save up to buy it.

  • specialseaweed@sh.itjust.works
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    As the dad of a teenager, I am “encouraging” him to put nudity blocking systems on his phone.

    oh shit would you look at that i just taught him how to go around me and hide his behavior better im sure there will be no future consequences whatsoever

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      The important thing isn’t that your kids don’t see porn, it’s that they feel the requisite amount of shame and never talk to you about their sexuality.

      Also, it’s one more thing we can criminalize in a surveillance state. So now we can more easily extort horny people with fines and prison if we feel the need

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    Gotta love how it’s “better” in these assholes’ “minds” to pretend sex doesn’t exist than to actually parent them on the topic that the kids are gonna find out about anyway - often in an unexpected and/or uncontrolled fashion. I’d much rather get ahead of that and make sure they know what they need to before they come face-to-face with it and are clueless - something much more likely to result in what is a supposedly (because they sure are picking the worst way to avoid it) undesirable outcome in the end.

  • pleaseletmein@lemmy.zip
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    Remember when Tumblr banned porn, and implemented it so poorly that any photos with enough peach-ish or brown-ish colors got nuked for “displaying nudity”?

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    OMG. These plans are getting on my nerves.

    When a parent gives a kid their device and sets the child’s birthday, then enable these. If the birthday is over 18, the let them do what they want.

    Let parents parent the kid and get the government out of my life.

        • AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net
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          “Content not available in your region” because Imgur has blocked the UK due to the Online Safety Act. Lmao, this is hilarious in a grim way.

      • richmondez@lemdro.id
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        Worse is that it likely won’t be able to distinguish between intentionally titilating material and material intended to educate. Only over 18 are allowed to learn about human physiology after submitting identifying information.

      • Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        Especially with titties, you think your five year old can’t deduce that those bumps on women’s chest have a nipple on it just like theres. Even if they can’t I doubt that revelation will be traumatic or earth shattering.

      • sleen@lemmy.zip
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        There already should be a distinction between what is a child and what is a teen - there is a huge difference and these laws don’t take that into consideration. The only thing these laws do is remain as an ageist weapon that create discrimination.

        • REDACTED@infosec.pub
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          Children generally aren’t that interested in nudity and most don’t understand porn, just that it’s something shocking

          • FartMaster69@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            I remember coming across nude skins for gmod back in the day, I just… moved on and didn’t download them because I was a kid with no interest.

          • sleen@lemmy.zip
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            That is true, the problem with nudity isn’t with age anymore - it’s with the perceived notion that nudity is damaging in some mysterious way.

            Some countries are allowed to have nudity on tv which brings this indoctrinated viewpoint to perspective. In fact, this is viewed as normal no matter the age in such countries. In addition, sex-ed for older children and teenagers is of higher quality compared to western countries which prohibit nudity.

            • IronBird@lemmy.world
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              worst thing for sexuality the UK ever did was let the protestants flee to the US instead of executing them (which they had no trouble doing with so many other “undesirables”), now their braindead dogma is spreading back across the pond

                • IronBird@lemmy.world
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                  there’s no room for tolerating intolerance, had the protestants been wiped out instead of dumped in NA the world at large would be better for it

    • mannycalavera@feddit.uk
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      That seems the most sensible way of doing things. Apple probably doesn’t want that outcome though because then they’ll be liable for the implementation rather than, for example, the social networks or websites.

      Always gotta be thinking about the Apple shareholders.

      • thejml@sh.itjust.works
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        Honestly, No. I don’t want my phone making decisions for me or my kids. If its site by site, they can just go somewhere else.

        As a parent, I’m far more worried about shitty social media algorithms that push narratives and online bullying and misinformation than I am about nudity. People have bodies, sex happens, it’s normal, whatever. I’d rather my kid learned about all that instead of being sheltered away from it until they turned 18.

        If anything, normalizing nudity and acceptance of different body types is probably a good thing for kids to learn, especially females where a constant narrative of “skinny, pretty, perfect” is being shoved on them and shaming them for not being a super model is considered the status quo.

        Let me make that decision as a parent, don’t try to protect my kids for me.

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      It’s kind of unfortunate how much this has been encourage by petty online fights. People were very excited when “will somebody think of the children” was applied to, say, some social media content or gaming loot boxes because the Internet did not like those things, so they were very happy to ignore the pre-existing parental control devices and request blanket bans. Then people remembered that a bunch of old, prudish people on both sides of the political aisle don’t like porn and it was too late.

      Man, people love the “they first came for” argument online and I should have guessed the first time it really pays off in the 21st century it’d include the absolute most depressing things possible instead.

      Anyway, this is bad and I don’t like it, but UK politics are almost as bad as US politics, so I’m happy to let both stew in their own cautionary tale juices.

      • evilcultist@sh.itjust.works
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        None of those other things should require any sort of identity or age verification, though. In the case of loot boxes, government should be able to tell companies, “hey, you can’t sell that here”. In the case of age verification and nudity scanning there’s a whole host of issues from the fact that people don’t find loot boxes to be taboo or embarrassing to the fact that people do find nudity and porn embarrassing, to the fact that any scanning systems will false flag, to questions about who has access to the data that is submitted and how long it is stored, to how easy it could be to misuse the systems to go after disadvantaged groups (we all know LGBT content will intentionally be covered by this, whether they’re open about it or not, right?), to whether or not the system will be used for other purposes that either aren’t being said aloud or won’t be realized until after it’s implemented.

        • MudMan@fedia.io
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          I… don’t know where you’re from, but actual gambling is legal here for adults. Are you suggesting that people should be able to place bets on actual sports but not buy a random loot box in a game? That seems incredibly extreme.

          Which still leaves a bunch of other stuff people have used kids to attack on all sides of multiple political aisles, but hey, if that’s the one you want to caveat I’m happy to flag how weird the caveat is.

          • evilcultist@sh.itjust.works
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            I think there could be reasons a government/people would want loot boxes to be not allowed that don’t relate to gambling and/or kids. I know there were some people that said “think of the kids!” when the discussion was going on, but my point is that there may not be direct overlap because the implementation and its effects are greater than simply disabling the ability to buy loot boxes in a particular region.

            The loot box issue is more like telling a vape company that they can sell oils as long as they don’t contain THC. This issue is more like saying, “You can sell the THC oils in any market or store, but every market and store in the country must check every item every user wants to buy for the presence of THC by to sending an image of that product to an AI that will tell you whether or not the user needs an age check to buy the item. If they do, the user cannot buy the item unless you take a photo of the user’s ID and send it to some random company that will use the photo to verify the user is allowed to use THC.”

            It’s an entirely higher level of complication and risk, so I’d excuse the “think of the kids” people that went after loot boxes in this particular case. But I’d also be curious about how much “think of the kids” overlap there is anyway.

            I didn’t mention any other cases because I didn’t know which specific issues you were referencing other than loot boxes. I wasn’t sure which social media content you were referring to, but you can imagine how I’d view it if it’s something like chat control or any other system relying on AI or age verification to control access.

            Also, the lower the taboo of the item being accessed, the more generous I am with these things. I still don’t like it, but no one is going to be ashamed if their love of loot boxes is leaked, for instance.

            • MudMan@fedia.io
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              I genuinely don’t know that I follow that explanation. For one thing, what reasons would there be to ban paid blind boxes, online or offline, while allowing outright games of chance with a monetary payout? In what world is a Magic the Gathering blister more of a problem (for a consenting adult, anyway) than an online casino?

              But also, by the larger point you’re making it seems like you’d be fine with a government saying “porn is banned for everybody because reasons” but not with “porn is banned for kids”, at least in a scenario where that comes with age verification.

              To be clear, I agree that both of those are… not good. I just don’t know that I can wrap my head around the logic of thinking the more extensive issue is more acceptable than the alternative. You could argue that the porn ban is an excuse to add mass surveillance, but at that point we’re not talking about the porn ban, we’re talking about the mass surveillance.

              Oh, and for the record, there is plenty of will someone think of the children regarding loot boxes. Both on its own and bundled together with a blanket assessment that gambling is immoral and/or illegal. It’s actually a fairly close match to the porn issue, where concerns about children are being wrapped around a more targeted hostility around the concept from both sides of the political spectrum.

  • toebert@piefed.social
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    They’re doing their part in UK politics. Tories stole everything they could and drove it all into the ground until everyone got sick and elected labour. Now they’re raising taxes to put money back in and doing everything they can to make sure they’re hated enough that there is no chance they get re-elected. Then, Tories can just walk back in and take all the money coming in from the new taxes again. It’s a beautiful cycle of the general population getting fucked from both sides.

    • IronBird@lemmy.world
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      what do you really expect from a nation of cucks who couldn’t be bothered to execute/exile their royalty back when that was the popular thing to do in europe?

  • habitualcynic@lemmy.world
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    Even if you’re morally opposed to the various things this addresses, it is so immensely concerning and unwise to want a corporation to have this much control over your actions, daily life, and liberty.

    I don’t think enough people talk about that.

      • habitualcynic@lemmy.world
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        I get that, but I don’t even mean it in that sense. A corporation should not have any control over what I do whatsoever unless I’m their employee.

        • youmaynotknow@lemmy.zip
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          And even if you are an employee, only in work related stuff and during business hours, the rest, get out of my life.

      • Holytimes@sh.itjust.works
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        The only time a corporation should care, is when they are in the business of selling sex toys. Then it should only be in so far that you enjoy using their products and want to use them more.

        Corporations should be pro sex or absolutely ambivalent. There’s zero reason for them to be against it.

    • namingthingsiseasy@programming.dev
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      1 day ago

      This has been very obvious to a lot of people since mobile devices were originally invented. The notion that you are sold a product that you “own” but is still 100% controlled by the vendor - anyone who thought about it for more than a second knew that it would eventually come to this. Of course, nobody gave even that tiny amount of thought about it. Or they were too naïve to think that a corporation could ever be evil.

      I miss the times when spyware was considered uncoool. Mobile devices are the undoubtedly the worst invention of the information age. (And social media is probably the second worst.)