I would love to come across one of the voters that voted for the orange fascist because they thought Kamala would be worse for the Palestines somewhere in the wild. It would be incredible to see if they still feel strongly about it now.
The only real difference is Harris would have voiced disapproval rather than approval. Netanyahu seems pretty adamant about following this course. I doubt any conservative president would be able to stop it.
I didn’t vote for Trump but let’s not pretend that Harris was going to stop it as she didn’t distance herself from Biden on this issue. Biden had 15 months and he didn’t, not even symbolically at the UN choosing to veto ceasefire, vote against Palestinian right to self determination and continue sending Israel weapons.
I agree that Trump is worse overall, but Harris would have still continued what Biden was doing and would have allowed the genocide to continue. By the end of Biden’s term 80% of Gaza was already destroyed, over 40,000 killed and Blinken at least once suggested removing the Palestinians from Gaza to Egypt and Jordan on his meeting with Arab leaders. It was covered in Arabic media but you may have missed it. Trump didn’t come up with anything new, he is just more unabashed and crude about it.
Now I am not saying that what Biden had done or what Kamala would have done would have been or was enough, but equating Trump with those two shows the lack of understanding of them trying to pressure a long time ally without completely acting to tear up that historical friendship between the two countries. Do you have a source for those numbers btw, a found few articles but most show way less then that so I am curious where you got those numbers.
Further protests and continued outcry, better to chance to have had a change in the stance under a democratic administration. Could you tell me under the current administration one if there is a good chance of being arrested or deported by simply protesting and voicing support for the Palestinians?
If the Democratic Party was willing to ignore the demands and protests of their own voter base, at the cost of their votes, during the most critical election against overt Fascism, why would they be willing to listen after? They had the opportunity to listen to the protests and demands of their constituents and act accordingly, an opportunity that would have vastly improved their chances of winning the election, but chose not too.
Thousands of pro-palestinian protestors were arrested under Biden. Let’s not pretend Trump is of course worse in both of these aspects, but we don’t have to ignore how Biden set the stage. The bills to legally brand pro-palestinian protestors as anti-semitic and pull tax exempt status for organizations like JVP for being “pro-terrorism” without evidence were also started under and supported by Biden. The Democratic Campaign was by no means a genuine opposition. I still voted for them for the same reasons I’m sure you did, but still.
Exactly, I am not saying the democratic party was great at it. My point is the protests were still allowed to happen though as in my mind arrests essentially still allowed protests to occur, deportations though are a different matter. You ask any proper activist about how many times they have been arrested for protesting, they typically wear it like a badge of honour. Deportation though is another matter. So I still stand firm that there would have been a greater chance for a better outcome under a Democratic administration.
Most just abstained, voters who actually switched sides don’t exist imo. If you voted trump last election, you never would have voted kamala even if she actually tried to win.
That being said, I can’t really blame people for drawing the line at genocide of all things. The dems thought they had an easy win so they decided to represent genocide instead of us, the voters. I still voted for them regardless but it felt altogether gross. It shouldn’t feel that way, they are supposed to be the good ones.
I don’t think we should condone the behavior by pivoting the blame to voters, who are just trying to be heard since clearly the democratic party has stopped listening.
I’ll quote another comment of mine in this same thread.
The majority of people who fell into this camp of refusing to vote for her were Palestinians. They had every right not to vote for someone who openly said she would continue to fund and arm the people killing their families and utterly destroying their communities. The correct thing was always for the Democrats to support human rights globally, to stand firmly against colonialism and stand with the Palestinians. They refused to do that. It’s honestly incredibly gross to find fault with people refusing to politically support people who are explicitly involved in the destruction of their people.
The continuing refusal of liberals to have any empathy for Palestinians is entirely emblematic of the failures of the democratic party. Over and over and over again you will compromise on genocide, compromise on human rights itself, to defend the disgusting political decisions of the democratic establishment. It’s never the fault of the democratic establishment for funding and arming a genocide, it’s always the fault of the minorities who wouldn’t vote for a party support the killing of their families and razing of their communities. How in god’s name do you plan to fight against fascism if you can’t even stand against racist colonialist ideology in the political party you support?
Expand it a bit and there are enough Palestinians, Muslims, and sympathizers in the country to swing the vote. Harris should have been better, but they all saw her for who she was, a cop who kissed the wall.
This ain’t an insurance claim. Multiple parties can be, and are, in the wrong.
The democratic party leadership should resign effective 10 years ago. It’s obviously entirely corrupted by corporate interests. The citizens who decided that was an excuse to sit on the sidelines to enable a full-blown fascist takeover are fascist enablers - which is not mutually exclusive with being victims. And they share the blame.
Anyway none of that fucking matters anymore because america had its last free federal election. You’ll excuse the rest of the world for being bitter about it because, and I cannot stress enough how deadly serious I am writing these words, we’ll be insanely lucky if the Palestinian Genocide ends up being the worst humanitarian disaster to come out of Trump’s electoral win. This motherfucker has fully and irreversibly upended 80 years of Pax Americana and now after decades of relative standstill Nuclear Proliferation is once again underway as american allies can no longer rely on the nuclear umbrella and enemies are no longer betting on a coherent and predictable foreign policy. Canada, Poland, South Korea, and probably more are now seriously contemplating or already working on a nuclear weapons program, not to mention that he expedited Iran’s own nuclear program in his first term in case you forgot. The genuine threat of Nuclear War is once again looming on the horizon, even if most people are too dense or too wrapped up in culture wars to notice.
So yeah, I’m real fucking mad at any fucking idiot American who ate the lies and astroturfing about Palestine, who refused to participate in harm reduction and subsequently enabled Trump and potentially doomed the whole of Humanity to a nuclear war in the medium term. From the bottom of my heart, fuck them.
It’s like you didn’t read my post at all, maybe you accidentally replied to the wrong post.
I didn’t tell anyone to vote Kamala or DNC, I said a write-in vote is a protest vote. For the love of God you can write in “anti-genocide” or “I stand with Palestine” as your vote, that is a protest.
Keeping this short because I hope you actually read this.
It’s about a coherent trail of ideas. If I’m talking about write-in’s, and you act like I’m telling you to vote for Kamala, when she’s on the ticket and there would be no sense in writing Kamala in when she’s already on the ticket, the conversation is not following a rational line of discussion.
If you’re going to protest, cast a blank vote, if you abstain you’re just going to end up mixed with the “too lazy to vote” crowd.
Also, having maned voting booths in my own country a couple of times (I expect it’s not all that different in the US) writting stuff in the your ballot paper will just make a vote invalid and nobody will record or even care about you wrote there - maybe 2 or 3 people will see your words there while counting votes, but that’s it.
In the US they’re aggrigated so, if someone really cared, they could see how many people wrote in. It won’t be counted until the votes that actually matter in the election are done being counted though, but it can be used to give insight to political strategists.
Post about israel stating they will exterminate Palestinians
You: it’s because of leftists and muslims and communists and santa maybe batman too.
Way to subtly change the subject and optics.
Why don’t you focus on the fact that the United States is currently aiding and supporting a genocide that has been unfolding for the last 70 years? I’m not american and I would have voted for Harris if I was one, but you are disgraceful for using minorities like tokens you can use and throw as you please, I’m quite certain that even if all of them voted for Harris, trump would still have been elected due to your f***** up gerrymandering policy. Putting the blame on hundreds of thousands and not on the millions of apolitical voters is MAGA level nonsense.
Please point out where in my post I said that their vote would have even caused a flip in the election results, there was a group that withheld their vote in protest (not the ones that simply did not vote). So I will say there is no evidence I can produce that they voted for Trump, but the chance of none existing is not zero either. So yes I would like to talk to one of those voters or non-voters in protest to better understand why they initially thought a withholding of their vote in the first place when the worse option was clearly the other option should the election go one way in light of the current votes.
Understanding what went wrong at all levels, and those protesting and withholding their votes was part of that issue. So cannot and should not be ignored if we are to learn from this for the future.
I’m sorry but in this context, under this specific post, you do not seem genuine or honest from my POV, if you are truly interested in my opinion you will find it in this thread.
What else is there to say if not than the democrats have pushed for the ostracism of their own base to pander to their donors, failed to reach a majority of the population due to a baseless political program…?
Keep on poking, acting all virtuous, and generalizing the minority yet most activist part of your voter base… I mean wake me up when the democrats do the next protest, I wouldn’t want to miss such a rare occurrence, and oh my… The cardboard are so creative…
Edit: If your first instinct about Israel officially announcing they will ethnically cleanse people was to ask a non question about why 1% of the american may have withhold their vote because of the Palestinian Genocide… Yet not considering Roe vs Wades, the hundreds of massacres sponsored by the US, the non action against the corrupted media owned by American Oligarchs and the corrupted and criminal enterprise which is the MAGA Movement than what went wrong in your thought process…
WELL, it’s worth discussing that leading up to the 2024 US General Election there was a bit of a bizarre alliance between global leftists and MAGA when it comes to media and information warfare.
For completely opposite reasons each, of course. MAGA thought Trump was going to take the US to being the next level of Imperialist superpower. Global leftists thought Trump was going to destroy the US’s power and influence and end the era of the US being the world’s sole superpower.
Only time will tell who was correct. Right now it looks like the global leftists were right - the US’s influence is rapidly deteriorating, and it may never recover.
Trump is looking like a big global leftist win in taking down the US - at the cost of many Palestinian lives. And maybe this was the trolley dilemma, with millions of Palestinians on one track, and billions of people on the other. Can we accuse leftists of being the ones to flip the switch? No, but leftists absolutely argued in favor of flipping the switch to trump and the downfall of America, at the cost of many Palestinian lives.
You are right that it is necessary to have this conversation but is it the right place to do it under this particular post ?
Also even if I totally understand your point of view and could definitely debate about it, something is bothering me, where does the democratic party errors comes into play? Why put all the blames on a minor part of the voter base? If we look at hard numbers the chances of Kamala winning were still extremely low even if she won their votes so it’s seem pointless for me to always keep poking the wounds under any post with a mention of Palestinians.
My point is that we should be going forward and not ostracizing a part of the voter base even more, these are hard times ahead of us and uniting is what I think the only solution, some Pro-Palestinians may have not voted or even voted for trump but we need to remember that if they are (rightly) angry it’s because they have been failed, I cannot fathom how one must feel seeing dozens of corpses everyday that looks like them for more than a year while knowing their taxes go towards the ones doing it.
It’s a duty to reconcile the voter base and create a strong front against fascism worldwide.
It’s going to be difficult for global leftists to find a willingness for solidarity and cooperation with the suffering people, who feel like their suffering was the goal. But with a lot of creativity, might be possible.
Now for sure, people were already suffering under Capitalism previously, but leftists are basically pitching the same " it has to get worse so it can get better" story as Elon Musk.
Now if leftists had backed Kamala, and Trump won, suffering people would be flocking to the left, instead of blaming them.
You are writing fanfiction here, I don’t think any serious leftist wants things to go sour for the US. As a leftist from outside the USA i often warn that the moment America crumbles we will all be struck by the sharpnell. If you take up some actual leftist literature, say some Noam Chomsky, some Baudrillard, some Felix Guattari, the overall feeling is " the contradictions of capitalism will mount and things will get considerably worse. " a lot of them suggest ideas on how to prevent these maladies, I’d recommend Guattari’s “Cartographies of desire” but sadly the USA seems like is on it’s full speed on course to ruin: facism in it’s government going progressively shameless, the over finatialization of it’s economy, the fact that political division and misinformation has been a strategy to undermine democracy used by both political parties, Oligarchy being so eager to turn “feudal” and several crisis of education. Things will get bad not because leftists wish it so, but because it will seem miraculous if they get better.
Either way, Americans have never cared whst leftists have to say. Their mere words will not change your reality.
You are writing fanfiction here, I don’t think any serious leftist wants things to go sour for the US.
I’m not writing fanfiction, I’m taking online dialogue from self-described leftists at their word. Now every individual is different, maybe a bunch of these were misinformation trolls calling themselves leftists. Maybe they were exaggerating and they don’t want the entire US to fall, they just want to get rid of NATO got carried away being edgy online. I get whiplash from how fast the script can seemingly flip sometimes.
sadly the USA seems like is on it’s full speed on course to ruin: fascism in it’s government going progressively shameless
I was told over and over and over again that full blown fascism in the US was better than secret fascism. Maybe from trolls, but I heard it over and over.
I would like to mitigate your opinion with the fact that throughout history, it was people with “leftists” ideas that allowed for a fairer society and most social rights, nowadays they are the one doing most for international justice and climate change, making them all accelerationists when a lot of them literally put their lives in jeopardy to make the world a better place for people they don’t know all while many democrats and liberals laughed about them because “tomato sauce on a plastic case in a museum is silly they should be put in prison for 5 years poor painting” or “some leftist didnt voted for kamala and now many palestinians get annihilated, love to see the pain on their face”.
I guess lots of things must change…
Also how do you know most leftists didn’t voted for Harris? From all I know the loud anti Kamala crowds has been amplified by foreign actors like in 2016 to make it look like it was a majority and divide the democrats further as well as reinforced gerrymandering policies. Let’s remind ourselves that Biden had 4 years to put trump and his corrupted goons in prison yet did nothing, the left has never ever been in power throughout the existence of the US putting the blame on them for trump is silly as they are the last barrier of protection before full blown fascism.
I was explicit about not blaming leftists for Trump. I can’t say that leftists are the reason Trump won office. Trump likely could still have won without any leftists. BUT. There was/is a leftist/MAGA alliance, let me demonstrate.
First:
Genocide Joe
Killer Kamala
Donald Trump
Next:
Start a conversation with a leftist about Genocide Joe and Palestine, good chance they never bring up Trump.
Start a conversation with leftist about Trump and Palestine, it’s impossible to avoid the conversation becoming entirely about Genocide Joe and the Democrats.
Unconsciously, leftists have given Trump and MAGA a free pass on genocide. No nicknames, no blame.
“some leftist didnt voted for kamala and now many palestinians get annihilated, love to see the pain on their face”
No, more like, “is it now bad enough that MAGA loses its free pass on genocide now? Nope some leftist came to explain to everyone why it’s actually all Genocide Joe’s fault still”.
Unconsciously, leftists have given Trump and MAGA a free pass on genocide. No nicknames, no blame.
Oh there are plenty of nicknames for Trump out there, don’tbemistaken.
My personal favorite is Traitor Trump for the alliteration like the ones you present.
But even if you haven’t seen any of these, that doesn’t mean the Left hasn’t been critical of Trump. See, Trump after taking office has issued so many executive orders as to flood the zone that it has divided attention on the Left (and anyone else for that matter) for what to criticize first.
Perhaps what Leftists mean when they say that it’s still Biden’s fault is that Joe should have ran a primary and put the best, strongest leader the Democrats could muster against the phenom Trump. But Biden had to wait until his utter humiliation on live TV for change to happen, even though Biden initially talked about being a 1-term president. He even said this back in 2015!!
While yes the most blame right now should be placed on Republicans, Trump, and Elon, the next portion of blame needs to squarely sit with establishment Democrats, the DNC, and Biden. Many liberals will overlook this aspect by placing the next most blame on the voters, but with no federal Election Day holiday in the US and increasing anti-voter tactics on behalf of the GOP, no wonder more people don’t vote.
But the Democrats need to and should have inspired those voters to vote anyhow, like Obama did in 2008 and Bernie did in 2016 and 2020. Instead we got monotone Kamala Harris whose only campaign positive was Tim Walz and his policy stances imo.
I should disclaim that I’m a leftist and criticized Kamala all the way to the general election, but still voted for her when the time came.
You missed my point. It was always clear for +90% of leftists that trump was worst.
You will not feel betrayed by your enemies but you will feel betrayed by your allies is the point.
Still there is no interest in discussing why this demographic felt betrayed, democrats were angry when trump backstabbed Zelensky rightly so, yet you cannot see how it was the same thing when the democrats were collaborating with the extermination of the people they were supposed to protect? with the extreme violence lashed out on the protest? The harassment? The doxxing? The clear avoidance of international sanctions etc.
Like come on, it would not have been my choice to not vote or vote trump but at some point we should reflect on the why and understand that the democrats acted in a shitty way and betrayed their voter base, it’s as simple as that.
You missed my point. It was always clear for +90% of leftists that trump was worst.
To me, this feels like a retcon out of hindsight.
The entire year up to election day all I saw was posts downplaying Project 2025, Trump’s authoritarianism, the threat to Democracy. Complaining that the media over-sensationalizes anything to do with trump. Accusing everyone worried about Trump that they’re just hysterical. Just crazy people thinking that every election ever, Democracy is at stake. And if you vote against Trump actually you’re just blue MAGA anyway with the blood of genocide on your hands.
Maybe it was clear to leftists that Trump was the worst, but leftists sure didn’t make it clear to anyone else that they gave a shit.
it’s about hurting the right people. whomever you need to hurt to push your agenda through, that’s who needs a whoopin’, but once that’s been accomplished, you can go back to hurting the people you really want to hurt. that’s “Freedom”, American Style
The strawmen keep getting bigger and bigger in these threads. Pretty soon they will be so big we will be able to host burning man. While I am sure said voters do exist, they were not the millions of votes that the democrats needed.
It would be incredible if democrats got rid of First-past-the-post boring in the blue states they control so people could be free to vote outside the two party system with no spoiler effect. But capitalists hate competition.
As we can see by democratic inaction on reforming the voting system at the state level, democrats want to continue the hostage situation they present in every election. This is not democracy. Forcing people to vote for your preference will never be democracy. Thus the voting system flaws must be treated like the crisis that it is.
We must be pushing for electoral reform in every state, but why is it so difficult to get the supposed democracy advocates in the democratic party to start moving towards making these critical reforms happen in states they control?
Feel free to make excuses for the democrats. Feel free to attack me all you want. State level rlectoral reform will continue to be the nonviolent way out of this mess. I hope yall come around, even if it probably is to late.
You falsely assume that I even considered these people having the overall numbers to even flip the election results, my comment is based on seeing how they feel about their decision now considering they were quite vocal about not voting for Kamala because she was a warhawk and therefore voted for a supposed “better”.
The rest of your point has nothing to do with the article nor my point. So please ensure keep to the topic on hand.
For context, I am a leftist, by American standards at least, and have seriously considered not voting in the upcoming election because of the Anti-Palestine stance taken by the Democrats. That said, I have realized how harmful of an idea that is for the future of our country and for progressive politics in general. The core issue with Single Issue Voters is that they will almost always either vote Republican or not vote at all, both of which hurt Democrats“
Also link to an article that shows there was in the very least uncommitted voters because of this. Yes, I will admit it does not mean they actually voted for Trump but their inaction caused the same result even if they did vote for Trump.
So let allow me to correct my initial statement here for you, I would like to meet to talk to those who withheld their vote because they thought to make a statement about the genocide in Gaza in the light of the current Authoritarian administration.
I’ve met bigfoot, he’s definitely real. I don’t have any evidence, you just gotta trust me, bro. I’m a random person on the internet, I couldn’t possibly be full of shit.
I have no idea what you’re on about vis a vis voted for Trump believing he’d be better for Palestine. A minority people refused to vote Kamala because of her open support of genocide, but that doesn’t mean they voted for Trump.
In either case, why is it their fault and not the fault of the democratic establishment exactly? Shouldn’t your ire be for establishment democrats who refused to stop supporting a genocide? They could’ve done that, you know. This might blow your fucking mind but democrats can actually do stuff. No one was holding Kamala secretly at gun point and forcing her to support genocide. She refused to stop and instead parroted the usual talking points of Israel’s “right to defend itself.” Shouldn’t that be the subject of your anger and frustration? Shouldn’t you be furious at the democratic establishment becoming more and more conservative as time goes on? Shouldn’t you be outraged at the way democrats persecute the progressive elements within their own political party? Instead of angry at the handful of people who tried to make their voices heard on the subject of literally funding and arming genociders?
Like what the fuck do you think political change within the democratic party looks like? Do you think that defending the establishment from anything and everything is how you get them to change? As each successive administration comes and goes the democrats have moved further and further to the right. They are well into conservative territory ideologically, and that should be immediately obvious to anyone paying attention. Gavin Newsom outright supported wild transphobia like forcing trans women into men’s prisons just last week. And he’s not the only one who’s done this. The democratic party is not a party of progressives. They only support minorities until they feel it inconveniences them in any way.
Please point out in my comment where I said there cote would have flipped the election results, also please note you and others stated alot as evidence for these can be found that the majority just did not vote in protest because of this issue. But I won’t accept that there is zero that actually did vote for Trump for this issue that is mathematically improbable.
People write of the non-voters or the ones (I will accept that these are very small amount) as a non-issue to focus on. But for me even understanding all facets of why they did what they did in light of how it’s currently panning out is to me a better understanding to find out what really went/going on in relation to people and this issue within their decision making particularly because there was a chance it could have been remotely better then what is occurring right now.
I’m not saying that not even a single person voted for Trump, mistakenly believing his human rights policies to be better. I am saying that is an extreme outlier. The majority of those refusing to vote for Kamala Harris in relation to the ongoing Palestinian genocide were Palestinians.
Just reading the last paragraph really shows how separated you are from the concept of genocide. The amount of death and destruction wrought while Biden was president is unlike anything that had happened there before the Nakba. The equivalent of several nuclear bombs. The total devastation of their entire culture. They pleaded with the Biden administration for a full year. They protested around the world. Biden and Harris did nothing. Harris indicated she was going to continue the Biden admin’s policy agenda with Israel. You were asking them to vote for people who openly said they’d arm and fund a regime that is decimating their communities, murdering their families, raping their people, and destroying their homeland. This ALL happened under Biden, and Harris openly refused to commit to changing that.
Versus the current situation. I still stand firm in my belief that there was a better chance to have had a better outcome for Palestine under the alternative administration then the current one who deports people for speaking out against it.
I am not separated by anything that is occurring in Palestine or the lack of humanity surrounding the issue, it’s a tragedy and one that is likely to repeat if we don’t understand what went wrong with people and how they interpreted not only the parties but the whole situation leading up to the election. One campaign was very authoritarian in their messaging and the other simply said no. Under which administration do you think there would have been a better chance to have had applied more pressure and possibly create a change in their stance towards this issue?
Biden sat back and did nothing for over a year while Israel committed genocide. He didn’t have to do that. Why do you talk like he had no choice? Why do you talk like Kamala had no choice? Why are you occupying your time and your anger directing it at Palestinians who wouldn’t vote for somebody funding and arming a state that is massacring them, tearing down their communities and literally raping them?
Would you vote for someone destroying your community? Would you vote for someone committing genocide against your people? Would you have the jews of France in the 30s vote for a party that gave the Nazis guns and money?
This is what I’m saying by you are entirely separated from it. You only see the genocide as a political event that you can interpret to provide material and ideological support to the democratic party. You’re entirely blind to the reality that it was a global series of events supported, protected, enabled, and perpetrated by the United States government under Joe Biden.
It’s over, Harris fucking lost. The democratic party has failed. It’s done. You can’t take it back. You are now presented with what to do now. You have chosen to spend your time lecturing Palestinians on why they should vote for the party paying the state that’s murdering and raping them. Instead of holding democrats accountable for their crimes. Instead of demanding a party that stands firm on human rights and refuses to partake in any genocide anywhere. Instead of demanding change, you are here bitching about Palestinians who won’t provide political votes to a party that engaged in over a year of open support for and defense of Palestinian genocide.
You are entirely separated from it. It’s just something that happened somewhere else to someone else. It’s just an inconvenience to you that it exists at all. It’s biggest impact on your life was how many votes your political party got. You’re entirely blind and ignorant towards the millions of people who’s lives were destroyed beyond recognition by Israel. No, your main focus is on the few people who wouldn’t vote for your political party on account of that party’s support and endorsement of genocide.
Yes, because I stand firm in my belief that there was a better chance to have had a better outcome under a Democratic administration after applying more pressure then the current fascist one. Thank you for your time but it appears you are just going around in circles at this point with your view.
How is my opinion dishonest, considering the current fascist regime is deporting people. Whereas under Biden there was still a chance to protest. Which one would you think then allowed an environment for further protest to then allow for possible change in how the US handled or currently handling the situation?
Rule 2: Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.
You got a temp ban for calling people children, stupid/delusional and trolls. We can all see your moderation history by going in the menu under the three dots.
Oh I see you told people to die just a month ago. Hope you get well soon.
I just do not think that is representative of the larger push back against Kamala’s campaign for supporting further Palestinian genocide. The majority of people who fell into this camp of refusing to vote for her were Palestinians. They had every right not to vote for someone who openly said she would continue to fund and arm the people killing their families and utterly destroying their communities. The correct thing was always for the Democrats to support human rights globally, to stand firmly against colonialism and stand with the Palestinians. They refused to do that. It’s honestly incredibly gross to find fault with people refusing to politically support people who are explicitly involved in the destruction of their people.
Stop punching down. Punch someone who actually deserves it for once. The democratic party does not have to be the conservative genocide supporting party against the fascist aspirational genociders party. Thats what they are now. They are far more committed to furthering the neo-liberal ideals of “western enterprise” and “american power” than they are committed to doing what is right for their own citizens or people across the world. They will do small gestures of support for minority rights and anti-colonialism but when push comes to shove if it means sacrificing their ruling class wealthy benefactors they will refuse. This isn’t going to change by fighting other working class people. It isn’t going to change by punching down.
This may surprise you but Lemmy isn’t the whole world. Even excluding the many users who arent American, the users who are do not number such a large percentage as to influence the outcome of an election.
I like how the people that a year ago were telling you to shut up about Palestine because it was hurting Biden are now trying to guilt trip you about Palestine
I love when people try to make some type of comparison between one fascist foreign policy party and another like one is better.
This is American foreign policy. It is bipartisan. The only difference between Biden and Trump on Israel is the aesthetics.
There is absolutely no reason to guilt anyone for not voting for the administration that was currently supporting a genocide or one that voted for the one that would support one in the future. US foreign policy is bipartisan. The US was always going to abandon Ukraine and it will always support Israel. If you think that one would be different then you haven’t read any history on US foreign policy.
The fact you even thought to call both policies fascist is incredible to me.
One side at least attempted to apply pressure. Was it enough and more should have been done I will not argue with that. But no way in shape or form is the current option better when there was better chance of something happening under the other option given enough pressure.
Plenty of reason to understand these people better so that messaging can be refined for the future, if they choose to feel guilt over their action or inaction because of this then good. Because look at whats happening and if this was their sole reason for withholding or voting another way then yeah I say they need to feel guilt so they can learn themselves how to better use their power to create change.
Yeah, I am happy to try and go back and forth with the odd stray here. Not sure what those other heavily moderated conservative instances are like but if they are like the askconservative subreddit where I had to avoid using triggering words such as Trans because they would go all snow flakey on me then I suspect they might be the same even here.
Edit: I will add that was from a party of free speech, where they could not even distinguish why trying to discuss Trans rights and them censoring it because it triggered them was completely different when left leaning politics was trying to censor racist/nazi/misogynistic talking points because the latter usually resulted in an increase in violent crimes or in the very least condoned it.
Uh…I’m sorry to tell you, but republicans and Trump won. Everything that is happening right now is happening under republican rule. Sitting in your own piss abd blaming others don’t work anymore!
Do you realize that Gaza has been completely flattened under Kamala Harris? Agent Orange is now bombing the ruins of Genocide Joe. Kamala would be doing the exact same thing as Donald Trump.
Liberals will jump up and down at handwringing genocide versus full blown genocide due to this weird utilitarianism they’re clinging to as their empire crumbles.
Biden’s constituents wanted an end to the genocide in Gaza. Biden ignored these constituents. Biden lost. That is how democracy works, and this outcome was more American than apple pie.
Screw the liberals who say that withholding votes to pressure politicians (the entire point of a democracy) is somehow fascist.
So the mask comes off. Rather than encouraging the exchange of ideas with people who make the effort of using a language other than their own, you resort to insults…. pathetic.
I already gave my opinion in this comment section. The people parroting “Kamala lost because of Pro-Palestinians” are ostriches that cannot look at themselves in the mirror due to their egocentrism. So when they fail all they can do to heal their hurt feelings is to scapegoat the weakest they have in hand rather than unit and fight back against extremism of all sorts.
Like at what point is it a fact and a reality that Pro-Palestinians had so much influence over the elections that it made trump win? like come on even if they all voted for her nothing would have changed.
Focus on the real issue, responsibility of the US and the international community, the situation is much older and complex than this idiotic debate about trump/biden/kamala.
There is currently a Genocide yet people keep changing subject with bs story.
Donald Trump says a lot of things. What he did was get them two months of relative peace. That would not have happened under Kamala, there would be no intermission to “resume” bombing from, there would just still be bombing. If Kamala wanted those voters then she should have broke from Biden’s support of Israel, which she did not do and is not how you get a ceasefire done with Israel. No, what she said is that we would have the “most lethal military” in the face of Palestinians her campaign blocked from speaking at the DNC. Biden said he had red lines, but never did anything when Israel crossed them.
That is how democracy works, you have to earn votes. “Vote for me or else” is not a fucking popular platform for what should be very obvious reasons.
Is it really more important to you to attack these voters and hold back the discourse, over 4 months after the election, as your government is breaking every rule in the book and your party is playing right along with it? The election result is not going to change no matter how many people you throw under the bus for it. These are the cards you were dealt, it’s time to move on and play spades.
It must feel empowering to only hold positions that are impossible to prove or disprove. Super brave.
I wouldn’t know, maybe you can tell me more about it?
Meanwhile, anyone living in the real world that is actually paying attention knows that what is happening now (in the US and in Gaza) is not normal and is not what any Democratic President would be doing.
This is not an honest response to any of the arguments I made.
You are not a serious person. I will not be engaging further; I have organizing to do that does not involve scapegoating people who will be hurt by this administration or living in alternate realities where everyone unquestioningly does what I want them to do because I said so.
Biden was pressuring Israel to act but also to do so with civilians in mind and to allow humanitarian efforts or risk getting cut off from military aid. Also the line that Kamala most probably would have towed as well. This is for those familiar with global politics is expected between long standing allies ( something Trump is currently failing at every stage currently). Meanwhile Orange Musolini has basically said “Have at it, also that spot there would be great for a hotel”. So I fail to see how you could even compare the two. But sure I guess if you happened to fail to grasp the nuance in global politics.
Unless you happened to have another point to make that is more substantive then “bOth PaRtIeS”.
No, they didn’t apply any genuine pressure, just empty rhetoric while continuing to provide billions worth of weapons unconditionally while Netanyahu ignored every “red line” with zero consequences. Biden is a self-proclamed Zionist, he had no issue with the genocide. All the empty rhetoric was just theater
The rhetoric coming out of the White House, when it has been focused on peace or restraint, rather than continuous war, has been undercut at every turn by its actions. The constant supply of weapons — $17.9 billion of bullets, bombs, shells, and other military aid in the past year — has allowed Israel to keep waging its war on Gaza, and in recent weeks, expand that war to Lebanon and threaten to escalate its conflict with Iran. Despite documentation of U.S. weapons being used in probable war crimes, and credible allegations that Israel is committing genocide in its war on Gaza, the bombs have continued to flow.
Did Biden deport anyone protesting this? If the answer is no then historically speaking protests while being allowed have always been a way to apply pressure for change. I won’t argue that they definitely could have done alot more but I won’t accept that both parties are same when at least one of them would have still allowed a way to potentially have changed their stance when the other just deports them because they are fascists.
Reduce the influence of parties by passing state level electoral reform. Replace of First-past-the-post voting, use a voting system that let’s voters transfer their vote if their first pick didn’t win. Give 3rd parties the opportunity to participate without a spoiler effect.
You are correct, I should have said equating them towards the end of my point. You are also correct that the opposing side always equates both political sides as essentially the same while failing to recognise the stark differences between them. Although both sides are not perfect, it’s not a nuanced difference like it was before MAGA crazy took over.
Hold up, let me get this straight: the people who didn’t vote for Harris caused the genocide that was already going on in Gaza, because Trump was elected. But also when Biden was president there was nothing he could have possibly done to stop the genocide that was happening in Gaza?
I voted for Biden and Harris and am one of the people being fucked over by Trump, and that’s still not enough. I have to tongue the asshole of every elected blue freak that is champing at the bit to throw people like me under the bus as soon as it’s expedient.
I voted blue in a swing state, blue loses anyway sadly. Then theres people going “I hope they make a big giant hotel and golf course now.” Or “should I call ICE on my neighbor?” it’s exhausting.
I would love to come across one of the voters that voted for the orange fascist because they thought Kamala would be worse for the Palestines somewhere in the wild. It would be incredible to see if they still feel strongly about it now.
“shes not good,”" i dont like her" or she dint make useful arguments in her campaign"-trump voters codewords for sexist reason they dint vote for her.
The only real difference is Harris would have voiced disapproval rather than approval. Netanyahu seems pretty adamant about following this course. I doubt any conservative president would be able to stop it.
I didn’t vote for Trump but let’s not pretend that Harris was going to stop it as she didn’t distance herself from Biden on this issue. Biden had 15 months and he didn’t, not even symbolically at the UN choosing to veto ceasefire, vote against Palestinian right to self determination and continue sending Israel weapons.
The fuck you on about? Trump announced to the world that the intent is to remove all Palestinians, permanently, to build resorts.
When did Kamala openly say the genocide should be accelerated and made total?
I agree that Trump is worse overall, but Harris would have still continued what Biden was doing and would have allowed the genocide to continue. By the end of Biden’s term 80% of Gaza was already destroyed, over 40,000 killed and Blinken at least once suggested removing the Palestinians from Gaza to Egypt and Jordan on his meeting with Arab leaders. It was covered in Arabic media but you may have missed it. Trump didn’t come up with anything new, he is just more unabashed and crude about it.
I voted for Jill Stein by the way.
Now I am not saying that what Biden had done or what Kamala would have done would have been or was enough, but equating Trump with those two shows the lack of understanding of them trying to pressure a long time ally without completely acting to tear up that historical friendship between the two countries. Do you have a source for those numbers btw, a found few articles but most show way less then that so I am curious where you got those numbers.
You lost me at pressure. I recall one occasion where Biden bypassed Congress to send weapons to Israel. What’s your idea of pressure when the Biden administration vetoes ceasefire at the UN two or three times?
40,000 was the low-end estimate, other sources estimated a higher death count: Gaza: 64,000 deaths due to violence between October 2023 and June 2024, analysis suggests
Gaza war death toll could be significantly higher, researchers say
Further protests and continued outcry, better to chance to have had a change in the stance under a democratic administration. Could you tell me under the current administration one if there is a good chance of being arrested or deported by simply protesting and voicing support for the Palestinians?
Didn’t student protesters get arrested and shot at with rubber bullets under Biden?
May 2024 Columbia University faculty ‘horrified’ by mass arrests of student protesters
May 2024 Police appear to fire rubber bullets at UCLA protesters
Yeah a few but you are missing the deportation part which is the stark difference between the two administrations.
If the Democratic Party was willing to ignore the demands and protests of their own voter base, at the cost of their votes, during the most critical election against overt Fascism, why would they be willing to listen after? They had the opportunity to listen to the protests and demands of their constituents and act accordingly, an opportunity that would have vastly improved their chances of winning the election, but chose not too.
Thousands of pro-palestinian protestors were arrested under Biden. Let’s not pretend Trump is of course worse in both of these aspects, but we don’t have to ignore how Biden set the stage. The bills to legally brand pro-palestinian protestors as anti-semitic and pull tax exempt status for organizations like JVP for being “pro-terrorism” without evidence were also started under and supported by Biden. The Democratic Campaign was by no means a genuine opposition. I still voted for them for the same reasons I’m sure you did, but still.
Exactly, I am not saying the democratic party was great at it. My point is the protests were still allowed to happen though as in my mind arrests essentially still allowed protests to occur, deportations though are a different matter. You ask any proper activist about how many times they have been arrested for protesting, they typically wear it like a badge of honour. Deportation though is another matter. So I still stand firm that there would have been a greater chance for a better outcome under a Democratic administration.
Your brain is fucking mush.
Most just abstained, voters who actually switched sides don’t exist imo. If you voted trump last election, you never would have voted kamala even if she actually tried to win.
That being said, I can’t really blame people for drawing the line at genocide of all things. The dems thought they had an easy win so they decided to represent genocide instead of us, the voters. I still voted for them regardless but it felt altogether gross. It shouldn’t feel that way, they are supposed to be the good ones.
I don’t think we should condone the behavior by pivoting the blame to voters, who are just trying to be heard since clearly the democratic party has stopped listening.
An abstain from voting is a vote that says “I’m fine with anyone or everyone”. An abstain is a vote that says “I am complacent to the outcome”.
If you want to protest, if nothing else, write in.
They didn’t draw the line at genocide. If you stand and watch and do nothing you are complicit in the genocide.
I’ll quote another comment of mine in this same thread.
The continuing refusal of liberals to have any empathy for Palestinians is entirely emblematic of the failures of the democratic party. Over and over and over again you will compromise on genocide, compromise on human rights itself, to defend the disgusting political decisions of the democratic establishment. It’s never the fault of the democratic establishment for funding and arming a genocide, it’s always the fault of the minorities who wouldn’t vote for a party support the killing of their families and razing of their communities. How in god’s name do you plan to fight against fascism if you can’t even stand against racist colonialist ideology in the political party you support?
Yeah, no. We don’t have that many Palestinians here.
Expand it a bit and there are enough Palestinians, Muslims, and sympathizers in the country to swing the vote. Harris should have been better, but they all saw her for who she was, a cop who kissed the wall.
And how many people do you think did not vote for specifically because of her continued support of Israel? How many people are you imagining here?
This ain’t an insurance claim. Multiple parties can be, and are, in the wrong.
The democratic party leadership should resign effective 10 years ago. It’s obviously entirely corrupted by corporate interests. The citizens who decided that was an excuse to sit on the sidelines to enable a full-blown fascist takeover are fascist enablers - which is not mutually exclusive with being victims. And they share the blame.
Anyway none of that fucking matters anymore because america had its last free federal election. You’ll excuse the rest of the world for being bitter about it because, and I cannot stress enough how deadly serious I am writing these words, we’ll be insanely lucky if the Palestinian Genocide ends up being the worst humanitarian disaster to come out of Trump’s electoral win. This motherfucker has fully and irreversibly upended 80 years of Pax Americana and now after decades of relative standstill Nuclear Proliferation is once again underway as american allies can no longer rely on the nuclear umbrella and enemies are no longer betting on a coherent and predictable foreign policy. Canada, Poland, South Korea, and probably more are now seriously contemplating or already working on a nuclear weapons program, not to mention that he expedited Iran’s own nuclear program in his first term in case you forgot. The genuine threat of Nuclear War is once again looming on the horizon, even if most people are too dense or too wrapped up in culture wars to notice.
So yeah, I’m real fucking mad at any fucking idiot American who ate the lies and astroturfing about Palestine, who refused to participate in harm reduction and subsequently enabled Trump and potentially doomed the whole of Humanity to a nuclear war in the medium term. From the bottom of my heart, fuck them.
It’s like you didn’t read my post at all, maybe you accidentally replied to the wrong post.
I didn’t tell anyone to vote Kamala or DNC, I said a write-in vote is a protest vote. For the love of God you can write in “anti-genocide” or “I stand with Palestine” as your vote, that is a protest.
Keeping this short because I hope you actually read this.
You’re supposed to agree with me when I say my stupid shit! It’s literally the only correct way to think!
My giant brain still somehow can’t comprehend someone reading what I have to say and dismissing it…!
It’s about a coherent trail of ideas. If I’m talking about write-in’s, and you act like I’m telling you to vote for Kamala, when she’s on the ticket and there would be no sense in writing Kamala in when she’s already on the ticket, the conversation is not following a rational line of discussion.
If you’re going to protest, cast a blank vote, if you abstain you’re just going to end up mixed with the “too lazy to vote” crowd.
Also, having maned voting booths in my own country a couple of times (I expect it’s not all that different in the US) writting stuff in the your ballot paper will just make a vote invalid and nobody will record or even care about you wrote there - maybe 2 or 3 people will see your words there while counting votes, but that’s it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Write-in_candidate
It’s not exclusive to the US but it’s mostly a US practice.
In the US they’re aggrigated so, if someone really cared, they could see how many people wrote in. It won’t be counted until the votes that actually matter in the election are done being counted though, but it can be used to give insight to political strategists.
What about all of the AOC/Trump voters? People are really fucking stupid here.
Post about israel stating they will exterminate Palestinians
You: it’s because of leftists and muslims and communists and santa maybe batman too.
Way to subtly change the subject and optics. Why don’t you focus on the fact that the United States is currently aiding and supporting a genocide that has been unfolding for the last 70 years? I’m not american and I would have voted for Harris if I was one, but you are disgraceful for using minorities like tokens you can use and throw as you please, I’m quite certain that even if all of them voted for Harris, trump would still have been elected due to your f***** up gerrymandering policy. Putting the blame on hundreds of thousands and not on the millions of apolitical voters is MAGA level nonsense.
Please point out where in my post I said that their vote would have even caused a flip in the election results, there was a group that withheld their vote in protest (not the ones that simply did not vote). So I will say there is no evidence I can produce that they voted for Trump, but the chance of none existing is not zero either. So yes I would like to talk to one of those voters or non-voters in protest to better understand why they initially thought a withholding of their vote in the first place when the worse option was clearly the other option should the election go one way in light of the current votes.
Understanding what went wrong at all levels, and those protesting and withholding their votes was part of that issue. So cannot and should not be ignored if we are to learn from this for the future.
I’m sorry but in this context, under this specific post, you do not seem genuine or honest from my POV, if you are truly interested in my opinion you will find it in this thread.
What else is there to say if not than the democrats have pushed for the ostracism of their own base to pander to their donors, failed to reach a majority of the population due to a baseless political program…?
Keep on poking, acting all virtuous, and generalizing the minority yet most activist part of your voter base… I mean wake me up when the democrats do the next protest, I wouldn’t want to miss such a rare occurrence, and oh my… The cardboard are so creative…
Edit: If your first instinct about Israel officially announcing they will ethnically cleanse people was to ask a non question about why 1% of the american may have withhold their vote because of the Palestinian Genocide… Yet not considering Roe vs Wades, the hundreds of massacres sponsored by the US, the non action against the corrupted media owned by American Oligarchs and the corrupted and criminal enterprise which is the MAGA Movement than what went wrong in your thought process…
WELL, it’s worth discussing that leading up to the 2024 US General Election there was a bit of a bizarre alliance between global leftists and MAGA when it comes to media and information warfare.
For completely opposite reasons each, of course. MAGA thought Trump was going to take the US to being the next level of Imperialist superpower. Global leftists thought Trump was going to destroy the US’s power and influence and end the era of the US being the world’s sole superpower.
Only time will tell who was correct. Right now it looks like the global leftists were right - the US’s influence is rapidly deteriorating, and it may never recover.
Trump is looking like a big global leftist win in taking down the US - at the cost of many Palestinian lives. And maybe this was the trolley dilemma, with millions of Palestinians on one track, and billions of people on the other. Can we accuse leftists of being the ones to flip the switch? No, but leftists absolutely argued in favor of flipping the switch to trump and the downfall of America, at the cost of many Palestinian lives.
You are right that it is necessary to have this conversation but is it the right place to do it under this particular post ?
Also even if I totally understand your point of view and could definitely debate about it, something is bothering me, where does the democratic party errors comes into play? Why put all the blames on a minor part of the voter base? If we look at hard numbers the chances of Kamala winning were still extremely low even if she won their votes so it’s seem pointless for me to always keep poking the wounds under any post with a mention of Palestinians.
My point is that we should be going forward and not ostracizing a part of the voter base even more, these are hard times ahead of us and uniting is what I think the only solution, some Pro-Palestinians may have not voted or even voted for trump but we need to remember that if they are (rightly) angry it’s because they have been failed, I cannot fathom how one must feel seeing dozens of corpses everyday that looks like them for more than a year while knowing their taxes go towards the ones doing it.
It’s a duty to reconcile the voter base and create a strong front against fascism worldwide.
Global leftists want the fall of America
Global leftists advocate for the fall of America
America starts falling
People suffer because America is calling
It’s going to be difficult for global leftists to find a willingness for solidarity and cooperation with the suffering people, who feel like their suffering was the goal. But with a lot of creativity, might be possible.
Now for sure, people were already suffering under Capitalism previously, but leftists are basically pitching the same " it has to get worse so it can get better" story as Elon Musk.
Now if leftists had backed Kamala, and Trump won, suffering people would be flocking to the left, instead of blaming them.
So… Sucks.
You are writing fanfiction here, I don’t think any serious leftist wants things to go sour for the US. As a leftist from outside the USA i often warn that the moment America crumbles we will all be struck by the sharpnell. If you take up some actual leftist literature, say some Noam Chomsky, some Baudrillard, some Felix Guattari, the overall feeling is " the contradictions of capitalism will mount and things will get considerably worse. " a lot of them suggest ideas on how to prevent these maladies, I’d recommend Guattari’s “Cartographies of desire” but sadly the USA seems like is on it’s full speed on course to ruin: facism in it’s government going progressively shameless, the over finatialization of it’s economy, the fact that political division and misinformation has been a strategy to undermine democracy used by both political parties, Oligarchy being so eager to turn “feudal” and several crisis of education. Things will get bad not because leftists wish it so, but because it will seem miraculous if they get better.
Either way, Americans have never cared whst leftists have to say. Their mere words will not change your reality.
I’m not writing fanfiction, I’m taking online dialogue from self-described leftists at their word. Now every individual is different, maybe a bunch of these were misinformation trolls calling themselves leftists. Maybe they were exaggerating and they don’t want the entire US to fall, they just want to get rid of NATO got carried away being edgy online. I get whiplash from how fast the script can seemingly flip sometimes.
I was told over and over and over again that full blown fascism in the US was better than secret fascism. Maybe from trolls, but I heard it over and over.
I would like to mitigate your opinion with the fact that throughout history, it was people with “leftists” ideas that allowed for a fairer society and most social rights, nowadays they are the one doing most for international justice and climate change, making them all accelerationists when a lot of them literally put their lives in jeopardy to make the world a better place for people they don’t know all while many democrats and liberals laughed about them because “tomato sauce on a plastic case in a museum is silly they should be put in prison for 5 years poor painting” or “some leftist didnt voted for kamala and now many palestinians get annihilated, love to see the pain on their face”.
I guess lots of things must change…
Also how do you know most leftists didn’t voted for Harris? From all I know the loud anti Kamala crowds has been amplified by foreign actors like in 2016 to make it look like it was a majority and divide the democrats further as well as reinforced gerrymandering policies. Let’s remind ourselves that Biden had 4 years to put trump and his corrupted goons in prison yet did nothing, the left has never ever been in power throughout the existence of the US putting the blame on them for trump is silly as they are the last barrier of protection before full blown fascism.
I was explicit about not blaming leftists for Trump. I can’t say that leftists are the reason Trump won office. Trump likely could still have won without any leftists. BUT. There was/is a leftist/MAGA alliance, let me demonstrate.
First:
Genocide Joe
Killer Kamala
Donald Trump
Next:
Start a conversation with a leftist about Genocide Joe and Palestine, good chance they never bring up Trump.
Start a conversation with leftist about Trump and Palestine, it’s impossible to avoid the conversation becoming entirely about Genocide Joe and the Democrats.
Unconsciously, leftists have given Trump and MAGA a free pass on genocide. No nicknames, no blame.
No, more like, “is it now bad enough that MAGA loses its free pass on genocide now? Nope some leftist came to explain to everyone why it’s actually all Genocide Joe’s fault still”.
Oh there are plenty of nicknames for Trump out there, don’t be mistaken.
My personal favorite is Traitor Trump for the alliteration like the ones you present.
But even if you haven’t seen any of these, that doesn’t mean the Left hasn’t been critical of Trump. See, Trump after taking office has issued so many executive orders as to flood the zone that it has divided attention on the Left (and anyone else for that matter) for what to criticize first.
Perhaps what Leftists mean when they say that it’s still Biden’s fault is that Joe should have ran a primary and put the best, strongest leader the Democrats could muster against the phenom Trump. But Biden had to wait until his utter humiliation on live TV for change to happen, even though Biden initially talked about being a 1-term president. He even said this back in 2015!!
While yes the most blame right now should be placed on Republicans, Trump, and Elon, the next portion of blame needs to squarely sit with establishment Democrats, the DNC, and Biden. Many liberals will overlook this aspect by placing the next most blame on the voters, but with no federal Election Day holiday in the US and increasing anti-voter tactics on behalf of the GOP, no wonder more people don’t vote.
But the Democrats need to and should have inspired those voters to vote anyhow, like Obama did in 2008 and Bernie did in 2016 and 2020. Instead we got monotone Kamala Harris whose only campaign positive was Tim Walz and his policy stances imo.
I should disclaim that I’m a leftist and criticized Kamala all the way to the general election, but still voted for her when the time came.
centrists and maga are aligned in their support for genocide. maga just has other policies in addition to genocide support.
Unfortunately yes, but point being that maga gets a free pass on genocide.
Even now the backlash against maga is mostly over Elon Musk taking a chainsaw to federal jobs and funding for social programs.
You missed my point. It was always clear for +90% of leftists that trump was worst.
You will not feel betrayed by your enemies but you will feel betrayed by your allies is the point.
Still there is no interest in discussing why this demographic felt betrayed, democrats were angry when trump backstabbed Zelensky rightly so, yet you cannot see how it was the same thing when the democrats were collaborating with the extermination of the people they were supposed to protect? with the extreme violence lashed out on the protest? The harassment? The doxxing? The clear avoidance of international sanctions etc.
Like come on, it would not have been my choice to not vote or vote trump but at some point we should reflect on the why and understand that the democrats acted in a shitty way and betrayed their voter base, it’s as simple as that.
To me, this feels like a retcon out of hindsight.
The entire year up to election day all I saw was posts downplaying Project 2025, Trump’s authoritarianism, the threat to Democracy. Complaining that the media over-sensationalizes anything to do with trump. Accusing everyone worried about Trump that they’re just hysterical. Just crazy people thinking that every election ever, Democracy is at stake. And if you vote against Trump actually you’re just blue MAGA anyway with the blood of genocide on your hands.
Maybe it was clear to leftists that Trump was the worst, but leftists sure didn’t make it clear to anyone else that they gave a shit.
it’s about hurting the right people. whomever you need to hurt to push your agenda through, that’s who needs a whoopin’, but once that’s been accomplished, you can go back to hurting the people you really want to hurt. that’s “Freedom”, American Style
The strawmen keep getting bigger and bigger in these threads. Pretty soon they will be so big we will be able to host burning man. While I am sure said voters do exist, they were not the millions of votes that the democrats needed.
It would be incredible if democrats got rid of First-past-the-post boring in the blue states they control so people could be free to vote outside the two party system with no spoiler effect. But capitalists hate competition.
As we can see by democratic inaction on reforming the voting system at the state level, democrats want to continue the hostage situation they present in every election. This is not democracy. Forcing people to vote for your preference will never be democracy. Thus the voting system flaws must be treated like the crisis that it is.
We must be pushing for electoral reform in every state, but why is it so difficult to get the supposed democracy advocates in the democratic party to start moving towards making these critical reforms happen in states they control?
Feel free to make excuses for the democrats. Feel free to attack me all you want. State level rlectoral reform will continue to be the nonviolent way out of this mess. I hope yall come around, even if it probably is to late.
Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
STAR voting
Alternative vote
Ranked Choice voting
Range Voting
Single Transferable Vote
Mixed Member Proportional representation
You falsely assume that I even considered these people having the overall numbers to even flip the election results, my comment is based on seeing how they feel about their decision now considering they were quite vocal about not voting for Kamala because she was a warhawk and therefore voted for a supposed “better”.
The rest of your point has nothing to do with the article nor my point. So please ensure keep to the topic on hand.
Anything but talk about the actual post… smh
“yOu ShoULd hAve vOTeD FOr OuR BabY kiLLeR tO SToP ThE otHeR BabY kiLLeR!”
deleted by creator
I would love to meet the people that thought they could use even worse genocide to excuse their own genocide.
I too would like to come across one in the wild, because despite people constantly bitching about them, I’ve yet to see evidence that they exist
Please see the below excerpt from reddit:
“# CMV: Leftist Single Issue Voters are a massive problem for Democrats.
Delta(s) from OP - Election
For context, I am a leftist, by American standards at least, and have seriously considered not voting in the upcoming election because of the Anti-Palestine stance taken by the Democrats. That said, I have realized how harmful of an idea that is for the future of our country and for progressive politics in general. The core issue with Single Issue Voters is that they will almost always either vote Republican or not vote at all, both of which hurt Democrats“
Also link to an article that shows there was in the very least uncommitted voters because of this. Yes, I will admit it does not mean they actually voted for Trump but their inaction caused the same result even if they did vote for Trump.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/18/uncommitted-campaign-democrats-gaza-election
So let allow me to correct my initial statement here for you, I would like to meet to talk to those who withheld their vote because they thought to make a statement about the genocide in Gaza in the light of the current Authoritarian administration.
They are in this threadIll retract that, not in this thread, but they do exist.
Here is one example
Link?
Not in this thread, i do apologize.
But, these people still exist.
I’ve met plenty. They’re definitely real
I’ve met bigfoot, he’s definitely real. I don’t have any evidence, you just gotta trust me, bro. I’m a random person on the internet, I couldn’t possibly be full of shit.
Okay
I have no idea what you’re on about vis a vis voted for Trump believing he’d be better for Palestine. A minority people refused to vote Kamala because of her open support of genocide, but that doesn’t mean they voted for Trump.
In either case, why is it their fault and not the fault of the democratic establishment exactly? Shouldn’t your ire be for establishment democrats who refused to stop supporting a genocide? They could’ve done that, you know. This might blow your fucking mind but democrats can actually do stuff. No one was holding Kamala secretly at gun point and forcing her to support genocide. She refused to stop and instead parroted the usual talking points of Israel’s “right to defend itself.” Shouldn’t that be the subject of your anger and frustration? Shouldn’t you be furious at the democratic establishment becoming more and more conservative as time goes on? Shouldn’t you be outraged at the way democrats persecute the progressive elements within their own political party? Instead of angry at the handful of people who tried to make their voices heard on the subject of literally funding and arming genociders?
Like what the fuck do you think political change within the democratic party looks like? Do you think that defending the establishment from anything and everything is how you get them to change? As each successive administration comes and goes the democrats have moved further and further to the right. They are well into conservative territory ideologically, and that should be immediately obvious to anyone paying attention. Gavin Newsom outright supported wild transphobia like forcing trans women into men’s prisons just last week. And he’s not the only one who’s done this. The democratic party is not a party of progressives. They only support minorities until they feel it inconveniences them in any way.
Deep down the blue conservatives understand that the democrats cannot change because that would upset the donors for their billion dollar campaigns.
Please point out in my comment where I said there cote would have flipped the election results, also please note you and others stated alot as evidence for these can be found that the majority just did not vote in protest because of this issue. But I won’t accept that there is zero that actually did vote for Trump for this issue that is mathematically improbable.
People write of the non-voters or the ones (I will accept that these are very small amount) as a non-issue to focus on. But for me even understanding all facets of why they did what they did in light of how it’s currently panning out is to me a better understanding to find out what really went/going on in relation to people and this issue within their decision making particularly because there was a chance it could have been remotely better then what is occurring right now.
I’m not saying that not even a single person voted for Trump, mistakenly believing his human rights policies to be better. I am saying that is an extreme outlier. The majority of those refusing to vote for Kamala Harris in relation to the ongoing Palestinian genocide were Palestinians.
Just reading the last paragraph really shows how separated you are from the concept of genocide. The amount of death and destruction wrought while Biden was president is unlike anything that had happened there before the Nakba. The equivalent of several nuclear bombs. The total devastation of their entire culture. They pleaded with the Biden administration for a full year. They protested around the world. Biden and Harris did nothing. Harris indicated she was going to continue the Biden admin’s policy agenda with Israel. You were asking them to vote for people who openly said they’d arm and fund a regime that is decimating their communities, murdering their families, raping their people, and destroying their homeland. This ALL happened under Biden, and Harris openly refused to commit to changing that.
Versus the current situation. I still stand firm in my belief that there was a better chance to have had a better outcome for Palestine under the alternative administration then the current one who deports people for speaking out against it.
I am not separated by anything that is occurring in Palestine or the lack of humanity surrounding the issue, it’s a tragedy and one that is likely to repeat if we don’t understand what went wrong with people and how they interpreted not only the parties but the whole situation leading up to the election. One campaign was very authoritarian in their messaging and the other simply said no. Under which administration do you think there would have been a better chance to have had applied more pressure and possibly create a change in their stance towards this issue?
Biden sat back and did nothing for over a year while Israel committed genocide. He didn’t have to do that. Why do you talk like he had no choice? Why do you talk like Kamala had no choice? Why are you occupying your time and your anger directing it at Palestinians who wouldn’t vote for somebody funding and arming a state that is massacring them, tearing down their communities and literally raping them?
Would you vote for someone destroying your community? Would you vote for someone committing genocide against your people? Would you have the jews of France in the 30s vote for a party that gave the Nazis guns and money?
This is what I’m saying by you are entirely separated from it. You only see the genocide as a political event that you can interpret to provide material and ideological support to the democratic party. You’re entirely blind to the reality that it was a global series of events supported, protected, enabled, and perpetrated by the United States government under Joe Biden.
It’s over, Harris fucking lost. The democratic party has failed. It’s done. You can’t take it back. You are now presented with what to do now. You have chosen to spend your time lecturing Palestinians on why they should vote for the party paying the state that’s murdering and raping them. Instead of holding democrats accountable for their crimes. Instead of demanding a party that stands firm on human rights and refuses to partake in any genocide anywhere. Instead of demanding change, you are here bitching about Palestinians who won’t provide political votes to a party that engaged in over a year of open support for and defense of Palestinian genocide.
You are entirely separated from it. It’s just something that happened somewhere else to someone else. It’s just an inconvenience to you that it exists at all. It’s biggest impact on your life was how many votes your political party got. You’re entirely blind and ignorant towards the millions of people who’s lives were destroyed beyond recognition by Israel. No, your main focus is on the few people who wouldn’t vote for your political party on account of that party’s support and endorsement of genocide.
Yes, because I stand firm in my belief that there was a better chance to have had a better outcome under a Democratic administration after applying more pressure then the current fascist one. Thank you for your time but it appears you are just going around in circles at this point with your view.
The dishonesty you are displaying throughout this thread is truly worrying…
How is my opinion dishonest, considering the current fascist regime is deporting people. Whereas under Biden there was still a chance to protest. Which one would you think then allowed an environment for further protest to then allow for possible change in how the US handled or currently handling the situation?
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Rule 2: Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.
You got a temp ban for calling people children, stupid/delusional and trolls. We can all see your moderation history by going in the menu under the three dots.
Oh I see you told people to die just a month ago. Hope you get well soon.
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I just do not think that is representative of the larger push back against Kamala’s campaign for supporting further Palestinian genocide. The majority of people who fell into this camp of refusing to vote for her were Palestinians. They had every right not to vote for someone who openly said she would continue to fund and arm the people killing their families and utterly destroying their communities. The correct thing was always for the Democrats to support human rights globally, to stand firmly against colonialism and stand with the Palestinians. They refused to do that. It’s honestly incredibly gross to find fault with people refusing to politically support people who are explicitly involved in the destruction of their people.
Stop punching down. Punch someone who actually deserves it for once. The democratic party does not have to be the conservative genocide supporting party against the fascist aspirational genociders party. Thats what they are now. They are far more committed to furthering the neo-liberal ideals of “western enterprise” and “american power” than they are committed to doing what is right for their own citizens or people across the world. They will do small gestures of support for minority rights and anti-colonialism but when push comes to shove if it means sacrificing their ruling class wealthy benefactors they will refuse. This isn’t going to change by fighting other working class people. It isn’t going to change by punching down.
6 months up to the election there were posts on Lemmy every single day with people saying they were going to protest vote for Trump because of Gaza.
This may surprise you but Lemmy isn’t the whole world. Even excluding the many users who arent American, the users who are do not number such a large percentage as to influence the outcome of an election.
Never said it did. Never even said they were American. You’re original comment made it seem like people like this didn’t exist at all.
I like how the people that a year ago were telling you to shut up about Palestine because it was hurting Biden are now trying to guilt trip you about Palestine
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Haven’t seen that once.
You weren’t paying enough attention then
Still don’t get it, what has a rollingstone about pelosi article to do with the strawman you build?
Democrats were more then happy to demonize people who supported Palestine.
In fact, they were happily denying the genocide and telling everyone to shut up about it
That’s very different from your original claim
I, too would like to meet Sasquatch one day. /j
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I love when people try to make some type of comparison between one fascist foreign policy party and another like one is better.
This is American foreign policy. It is bipartisan. The only difference between Biden and Trump on Israel is the aesthetics.
There is absolutely no reason to guilt anyone for not voting for the administration that was currently supporting a genocide or one that voted for the one that would support one in the future. US foreign policy is bipartisan. The US was always going to abandon Ukraine and it will always support Israel. If you think that one would be different then you haven’t read any history on US foreign policy.
The fact you even thought to call both policies fascist is incredible to me.
One side at least attempted to apply pressure. Was it enough and more should have been done I will not argue with that. But no way in shape or form is the current option better when there was better chance of something happening under the other option given enough pressure.
Plenty of reason to understand these people better so that messaging can be refined for the future, if they choose to feel guilt over their action or inaction because of this then good. Because look at whats happening and if this was their sole reason for withholding or voting another way then yeah I say they need to feel guilt so they can learn themselves how to better use their power to create change.
Internet though guy over here, lol.
I was gonna say “there’s tons of em on .ml” but one of em was nice enough to prove it right in this thread
One of them made this post.
Yeah, I am happy to try and go back and forth with the odd stray here. Not sure what those other heavily moderated conservative instances are like but if they are like the askconservative subreddit where I had to avoid using triggering words such as Trans because they would go all snow flakey on me then I suspect they might be the same even here.
Edit: I will add that was from a party of free speech, where they could not even distinguish why trying to discuss Trans rights and them censoring it because it triggered them was completely different when left leaning politics was trying to censor racist/nazi/misogynistic talking points because the latter usually resulted in an increase in violent crimes or in the very least condoned it.
Uh…I’m sorry to tell you, but republicans and Trump won. Everything that is happening right now is happening under republican rule. Sitting in your own piss abd blaming others don’t work anymore!
Do you realize that Gaza has been completely flattened under Kamala Harris? Agent Orange is now bombing the ruins of Genocide Joe. Kamala would be doing the exact same thing as Donald Trump.
Correction: she would let Israel do as it pleases without officially cheering them on.
Liberals will jump up and down at handwringing genocide versus full blown genocide due to this weird utilitarianism they’re clinging to as their empire crumbles.
Biden’s constituents wanted an end to the genocide in Gaza. Biden ignored these constituents. Biden lost. That is how democracy works, and this outcome was more American than apple pie.
Screw the liberals who say that withholding votes to pressure politicians (the entire point of a democracy) is somehow fascist.
I don’t think anyone is saying it’s fascist. Just that it’s fucking stupid.
Big difference!!! We don’t need to hear what they gonna do, it’s easier to ignore when they told us nothing!
Yes, the vice president controls the military. For sure, the military of another country. The tie vote for the senate, yeah ok.
Where was the Palestinian on stage at the DNC?
Huh. Didn’t realize Harris got elected. Someone should tell orangeboi.
Seriously dude: your first sentence is fully nonsense.
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So the mask comes off. Rather than encouraging the exchange of ideas with people who make the effort of using a language other than their own, you resort to insults…. pathetic.
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I already gave my opinion in this comment section. The people parroting “Kamala lost because of Pro-Palestinians” are ostriches that cannot look at themselves in the mirror due to their egocentrism. So when they fail all they can do to heal their hurt feelings is to scapegoat the weakest they have in hand rather than unit and fight back against extremism of all sorts.
Like at what point is it a fact and a reality that Pro-Palestinians had so much influence over the elections that it made trump win? like come on even if they all voted for her nothing would have changed.
Focus on the real issue, responsibility of the US and the international community, the situation is much older and complex than this idiotic debate about trump/biden/kamala.
There is currently a Genocide yet people keep changing subject with bs story.
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Is building a golf course your red line, not genocide?
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Donald Trump says a lot of things. What he did was get them two months of relative peace. That would not have happened under Kamala, there would be no intermission to “resume” bombing from, there would just still be bombing. If Kamala wanted those voters then she should have broke from Biden’s support of Israel, which she did not do and is not how you get a ceasefire done with Israel. No, what she said is that we would have the “most lethal military” in the face of Palestinians her campaign blocked from speaking at the DNC. Biden said he had red lines, but never did anything when Israel crossed them.
That is how democracy works, you have to earn votes. “Vote for me or else” is not a fucking popular platform for what should be very obvious reasons.
Is it really more important to you to attack these voters and hold back the discourse, over 4 months after the election, as your government is breaking every rule in the book and your party is playing right along with it? The election result is not going to change no matter how many people you throw under the bus for it. These are the cards you were dealt, it’s time to move on and play spades.
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I wouldn’t know, maybe you can tell me more about it?
This is not an honest response to any of the arguments I made.
You are not a serious person. I will not be engaging further; I have organizing to do that does not involve scapegoating people who will be hurt by this administration or living in alternate realities where everyone unquestioningly does what I want them to do because I said so.
And yet it’s what happened under them…
When was that “under Kamala”? Is it in this room with us right now?
I might have bad news for you
Biden was pressuring Israel to act but also to do so with civilians in mind and to allow humanitarian efforts or risk getting cut off from military aid. Also the line that Kamala most probably would have towed as well. This is for those familiar with global politics is expected between long standing allies ( something Trump is currently failing at every stage currently). Meanwhile Orange Musolini has basically said “Have at it, also that spot there would be great for a hotel”. So I fail to see how you could even compare the two. But sure I guess if you happened to fail to grasp the nuance in global politics.
Unless you happened to have another point to make that is more substantive then “bOth PaRtIeS”.
No, they didn’t apply any genuine pressure, just empty rhetoric while continuing to provide billions worth of weapons unconditionally while Netanyahu ignored every “red line” with zero consequences. Biden is a self-proclamed Zionist, he had no issue with the genocide. All the empty rhetoric was just theater
Year of Empty Rhetoric From the White House on Israel’s Wars
Did Biden deport anyone protesting this? If the answer is no then historically speaking protests while being allowed have always been a way to apply pressure for change. I won’t argue that they definitely could have done alot more but I won’t accept that both parties are same when at least one of them would have still allowed a way to potentially have changed their stance when the other just deports them because they are fascists.
No deportations of protesters under Biden, only the regular kind, but he was also implementing Project Esther
Reduce the influence of parties by passing state level electoral reform. Replace of First-past-the-post voting, use a voting system that let’s voters transfer their vote if their first pick didn’t win. Give 3rd parties the opportunity to participate without a spoiler effect.
You do support democracy right?
May I ask what you wrote has to do with anything about the article or what I wrote?
idiot
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You are correct, I should have said equating them towards the end of my point. You are also correct that the opposing side always equates both political sides as essentially the same while failing to recognise the stark differences between them. Although both sides are not perfect, it’s not a nuanced difference like it was before MAGA crazy took over.
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Hold up, let me get this straight: the people who didn’t vote for Harris caused the genocide that was already going on in Gaza, because Trump was elected. But also when Biden was president there was nothing he could have possibly done to stop the genocide that was happening in Gaza?
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Oops, guess I wasn’t supposed to ask that one.
I voted for Biden and Harris and am one of the people being fucked over by Trump, and that’s still not enough. I have to tongue the asshole of every elected blue freak that is champing at the bit to throw people like me under the bus as soon as it’s expedient.
I voted blue in a swing state, blue loses anyway sadly. Then theres people going “I hope they make a big giant hotel and golf course now.” Or “should I call ICE on my neighbor?” it’s exhausting.
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Holy shit do you have a camera that takes photos of alternate timelines?
Were you not here for the last year of Biden’s presidency or something?
Selling lgbt people, ethnic minorities, immigrants, poor people dependent on social programs only to gain… nothing. What a deal…
First they came for the Palestinians. And you did not speak out because you are not a Palestinian.
We absolutely spoke up you fucking dolt
WTF why didn’t the candidates care? Maybe we need to vote Blue No Matter Who even harder.
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so edgy
ʕ ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°ʔ
edit: totally not edgy
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My sincere apologies mr causality for implying you were edgy, I know now that my words about you being edgy could be upsetting, I take them back.
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