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I’m not saying any of your points aren’t salient but I saw this story and thought nothing of it, at first. Take it for what it is, the details aren’t entirely clear to me, yet. I’m not going to be like the GOP and follow marching orders just because I read a comment online.
Edit:
I expected the down votes and it’s really sad you won’t even hear me out.
Edit2:
How’s does it feel to be a victim of media narrative? Just letting them jerk your chain because you have no chill?
No one’s stopping you from talking, and votes don’t matter. I think most people have the numbers turned off anyway.
Say what you’re going to say.
EDIT: should have kept scrolling before commenting. I saw your other comment.
I said my peace.
The GOP want to provoke an emotion response with shit like this because they think it justifies their emotive support of trump and the people like him. We are all emotional beings, so when they provoke us, like they have when making attacks on the judiciary, they can point to us and say, “they’re emotive too.” It’s manipulation and I don’t believe much of this engagement is genuine.
The point is, it’s more important, for people like Abrego Garcia, that we are not emotive right now and show a unified front of being principled. If a judge in New Mexico has to take an L then they have to take the L.
That judge has the choice to lay down her judgeship, plead her case in the court of public opinion and I would support her. If she’s doesn’t then she must obey the laws that bind us all. If she has done that then she has to go through courts.
“I’m not going to blindly believe one headline, but I’m also not going to do any research whatsoever. Bring on the downvotes”
You’re wasting everyone’s time.
I did research. No, I’m not trusting anons on the internet. Grow up or wake up.
Unless I know your affiliation, you are just repeating common, unflappalbe facts, or using some sound logic that you would allow to be challenged… no.
You voluntarily came onto the thread and stated loudly and clearly that you didn’t understand the story and thought little of it.
I’ve read all your other comments. You have not only contributed ZERO to the conversation, you have gone out of your way to make it partisan.
Just take a breath and use your brain, such as it is.
I’ve contributed what I contributed. I wouldn’t expect you to value it because its not blind zealotry.
Okay, I’ll hear you out. What details do you need clarified to be concerned that ICE is interrupting court to arrest people?
I need to know if they have broke any laws by doing so. I don’t care if it’s a judge. I can’t be advocating for the trump administration follow rule of law and at the same time advocating anyone democrat leaning bending the rules to their liking. At no point has any one I consider a legal authority laid out the federal governemnts case and the judges case.
I may very well be on OPs side but what I see is a lot of dust getting kicked up and that usually means the trump propaganda machine is ramping up. It’s looks like bait to me and it’s probably a case the federal government will easily win in the court of public opinion so I’m not going to stick my neck out when it means my credibility is on the line when discussing other, more pressing, matters like Abrego Garcia.
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Good morning,
Sorry. I was driving all yesterday.
I hate quoting and clipping but since you were kind enough to take me seriously I’ll do my best to address everything.
is because people being upset usually means this administration wants them to be upset?
I think one of the biggest weaknesses of the left right now is how predictable we are. We do this because the GOP is emotionally manipulative. This is how they get away with being bad faith. They don’t need to be good faith if they can demonstrate everyone is as emotionally driven as they are. Case and point, I woke up to the of r/conservative being this, this morning:
Could I have 100% told you this would be the case?
Yes, but not because I’m a genius. There are at least 3 different, reliables, sources I know that would have commented on this action and they didn’t. Instead, reddit blew up. I cannot emphasis this enough, reddit is not reliable. I’ve been demonstrating it for almost a year now.
They are trying to make judges afraid of interfering so that they can keep kidnapping and concentrating people like Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This woman was trying to stop them from making another man disappear.
The rest of everything you said appears to be true. They are trying to make them afraid but I’m not sure the exact legal defense for this judge and I’ll wait till I learn it.
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Well i read the article and thought nothing of it. People seem to be pretty upset with me for it.
I need to know if they have broke any laws by doing so.
Yes? The whole point is that they had the wrong paperwork and were not legally allowed to arrest the guy whose case the judge was presiding over.
It’s not my particular place to lay out the details in this case. I suspect there are other people who are much better suited but my interpretation is they had paperwork to arrest in a public venue. The court was not said venue. The Judge then purposefully directed him to leave using an alternative exit to prevent his arrest. The legality of that action is what’s in question.
my interpretation is they had paperwork to arrest in a public venue
Incorrect. An administrative warrant gives no grounds for an arrest, it authorizes fact-finding only.
The legality of that action is what’s in question.
What law do you think allows ICE to dictate what exits to use?
I’ll wait till I see the supreme court weigh in. I don’t think you’re wrong but that’s where we are at.
People are likely willing to hear you out, but you haven’t exactly made a point to hear out.
What details do you find unclear? From what I’ve read, the judge notified ICE that they didn’t have a valid judicial warrant to arrest their target. After that, the judge allowed ICE’s target to leave the courthouse, presumably because the immigrant was not required to comply.
There’s a growing pattern of ICE attempting to take advantage of people’s lack of ability to identify a judicial warrant to pressure them into compliance and/or arrest. I think it’s reasonable to caution anyone that has to interact with any agency that’s known to be shady.
If that were the entire story, maybe I agree, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the entire story.
Maybe you should read the entire story, it’s not that long.
When Republicans push media narratives like this it always seems some details are being left out.
“It seems like something is being left out”
“I don’t know the whole story, I won’t read it for myself, and I won’t listen to other people about what it is.”
“Why am I being downvoted?”
Clownmakeup.jpg
🤡people who act suprised when this judge loses her case🤡
I’m going to warn you: There’s a lot that ICE and the administration have gotten away with because of people claiming “No way. Their actions would be too ridiculous if that’s what it was. There must be more to it.”
What we knew already even before scarce details emerged:
- Judges are extremely slow to take deliberate actions, to affirm their position as a fair arbiter that gives all sides chances to respond
- ICE has scarcely ever provided sufficient evidence for many of their arrests, including most of the high-profile ones
- The immigrants involved in this crime showed no indications of being violent or dangerous (even though ICE claimed they were)
So no, I don’t think ICE can be given benefit of doubt in this case. Every officer involved with this one can be arrested - and they can provide their argument when they go on trial.
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The stance is correct. ICE as an agency is a threat to our democracy. Debating the nuance doesn’t help with the point that ICE is able to internally determine who needs to go. With the state of the immigration system and threat to due process people should be standing up to what they believe is wrong. Personally, I think what the judge did was right when the man was there on a pretrial hearing for a seperate criminal matter.
As to the case, a previous 2011 directive for ICE to avoid arrests in or near courthouses was rolled back by Trump. That’s the same one that included sensitive areas such as schools. So now, under executive direction, they can enter public spaces such as courthouses to effect arrests. This has the chilling effect of having persons accused of crimes in local communities avoid court dates and further erodes due process.
Alltogether, ICE wasn’t wrong here procedurally and by the the letter of the law. However morally it’s all sideways. We don’t know if that man would have been transported to another state detention center, given access to a lawyer or even allowed to contact his family. Seeing how the admin has operated, he likely would never have gotten a court date to even review his immigration case.
If you interfere with ICE you can face criminal charges. That’s what they’re pinning on this judge.
So the system by design is f-d up. Notice how on a federal level no officials or anyone else has been arrested for violating due process rights of individuals in those high profile deportation cases? It’s a crazy double standard and the administration will likely pump this case up to show that they have all the power–including (albeit here with a local judge) over the judiciary.
Again, ICE is wrong and what the government is doing to immigrants is wrong. It’s a broad threat to our rights and they’re just getting bolder by the day. Operating legally does not mean you are operating morally.
I like your messaging. I hope it becomes the dominant message.
I really wish independent journalism existed so you could find out basic facts like “how often does the FBI normally arrest judges?” “Has a judge ever been arrested for obstruction of justice?” “Do they never get arrested inside a courthouse?”
I’m sure Judges sometimes commit crimes, just like everyone else. Are they normally given special deference and not arrested? Do they only get arrested for serious charges, and normally they get special dispensation because of their judge status?
Arresting judges does sound alarming, but without context it’s impossible to know just how norm-breaking it is.
For example, if a judge is pulled over and found to be driving drunk, I most definitely would want that judge arrested and charged. Not arresting and charging a judge in that situation sounds like institutional corruption. I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens, but I don’t know because these journalists aren’t doing their damn jobs.
Don’t get me wrong, in this case I’m pretty convinced that the Trump people are overstepping their bounds. It seems like a pattern of attacking the judiciary. And, this isn’t the judges being arrested for driving drunk or accepting bribes. This is judges being arrested for things related to immigration. Immigration, in particular, is something that the Trump administration is doing completely unlawfully.
But, how can we have any kind of informed dialogue when the standard of reporting is: “One side said ‘It’s outrageous they arrested a judge’, the other side said ‘the administration won’t accept judges breaking the law.’ The judge may have been a democrat.”
Probably because the article is from a business news outlet. I have heard a lawyer talk about the case, saying it was very unusually for her to be arrested for such charges (Leeja Miller I believe; not really a journalist, just a youtuber).
That’s the problem. Someone shouldn’t have to find a random YouTuber to get basic answers.
Hannah Dugan is a hero and a patriot
I said this before…when the fuck do we rise up? Or are we going to sit in the pot and boil?
I think you guys are going to sit and boil.
If you ask me, things should have started burning a few months ago.
I think you’re 100% correct.
Unfortunately, this is a exactly what Trump wants. He wants riots and chaos so he can declare martial law and gain even more power and possibly delay or even cancel elections. All of this is calculated.
If I’m not mistaken, a full national declaration of martial law would require not only approval of individual state legislatures, but also the loyalty of the military and the National Guard in every state.
By bypassing laws and regulations, totally disregarding checks and balances now that mechanism is compromised, the bastard need not to declare martial law to spread terror.
He wants riots and chaos so he can declare martial law and gain even more power and possibly delay or even cancel elections.
And the alternative is sit and let ICE blackbag innocents?
The US has the 2nd amendment, which they love so much. ICE should be getting gunned down in the street by this point.
This is how you guarantee trump’s third term.
It’s already happening. America can passively accept their country is gone, or they can fight to try and save it.
And the minute they begin to fight, Trump locks it all down and America enters into a martial law that I guarantee won’t end before his third term.
If there’s an uprising- it’ll have to be all-or-nothing- and that nothing will come at a heavy cost.
I really hope people know this is exactly what he wants. You’re being baited into giving him everything he needs.
You’re right. It’s better to just hide in your homes and hope for the best. Don’t want to play into his hands.
Ok so what, work within the system? The clearly ineffectual system which isn’t working?
I dunno about that. This was more or less Chuck Schumers approach to passing his agenda. If you fight him it’s going to get worse, so don’t fight? I feel foreign nationals shouldn’t be leading the charge because of their vulnerability, but for full-fledged us born citizens following the law with their rebuke, surely many would martyr themselves for a historical rally against fascism knowing the ACLU would defend them.
Oh we should absolutely be fighting but not with guns. We should be fighting with the law and protests. We should be confronting these fuckers at every junction. But the moment we pick up a gun or a rock or some other violent means we just give them the excuse to escalate the fascism.
Kinda hard when only 55% of people disapprove of your king.
Allegedly, it only takes 3.5% of a population to enact change through nonviolent protests. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world
Maybe give that an honest try first? Hard to unring a bell.
I blame the “fuck you got mine” mentality that’s become ingrained in Americans. A revolution requires selflessness but Americans aren’t equipped for that.
Agreed, things haven’t been good for years. But since Covid this country went from “we the people” to “me, me, me.”
I feel it started before and it was like that before covid. I’m gen Z and I remember around 2017 the rise of popularity of songs about “me me me being the #1 gang banger the gangster, them bitches love me, them ni**as hating” among the people in my age group, and it sorta just grew from there.
What I noticed during covid and once TikTok style videos became mainstream was sort of a “normalization” or acceptance of the phenomena mentioned above.
Remember Wall-E were everyone in the future is a fat individualistic human being, connected to a bed on wheels with a screen and everyone seems to be doing their own thing with no resemblance of families, couples, friends, goals?
Agreed I’m 42 and personally growing up in the late 80s and 90s I feel like Regan and Rush Limbaugh were both a big influence on the situation the country is in now. And honestly, you can go back to Nixon and JFK getting assassinated as the main focal point from when America stopped being America and became more conservative and for the money and for the wealthy.
Where the hell have you been for the last few years? Americans won’t do shit. The tech oligarchy and the facists have the population exactly where they want them to be, struggling and unable to take actions.
Struggling economically and doom scrolling from the moment they wake up, until they go to bed.
when the fuck do we rise up?
As long as there’s an internet to keep the keyboard warriors happy enough to just complain about it online and then walk away feeling like they’re part of the resistance?
Never.
And the moment there is an uprising, you’ve just given Trump his reason to secure a third term. So, there’s that.
From where I see it- the only way to fight this is to create a functional time machine and go back and tell the ninety one million people smooth-brained dipshits that sitting their asses and whining about genocide in a country they couldn’t have even pointed to on a map a year and a half ago- would result in everything happening now.
This was avoidable.
And now we have to contend with the possibility of having to participate in an absolute shitshow of a bloodbath as the only means to regain the freedoms we had just a few months ago?
I honestly don’t know who’s worse; the far left protest voting- dumbasses that helped put us here, or the far right MAGA voting dumbasses that wanted to put us here.
It has started. It has been out of control for some time I can guess it will end badly for our American cousins and also the world.
First they came for the immigrants, But I said nothing, Because I’m not a filthy immigrant.
Then they came for the protestors, But I said nothing, Because protesters are libtards.
Then they came for the judges and politicians, But I said nothing, Because they are all corrupt and evil.
Then they came for the minorities, But I said nothing, Because they deserve it!
And then they came for me, Because I was a gullible tool.
- A future MAGAT survivor.
They would never admit it. They would say “and then they came for me, and I have no idea why”
They wouldn’t say “no idea why.” They would blame the immigrants.
Hannah Dugan 2028
She might be Supreme Justice material. Here’s hoping that Sanders/AOC considers Hannah Dugan for placement.
So what do we do… We know what the response should be… but are we gonna do it…
No, you won’t.
There will be some soft protestations, admittedly in huge numbers, but that will be it. Then you’ll accept this as normal.It will get worse and worse over the years and a lot of you will be looking around for someone else to do something, which won’t happen.
Then in 2028, though probably earlier, OrangeCunt will declare himself president for life and you’ll all again look around for other people to “sort it all out”. However there will be no one left to do anything as they will have been arrested, scared off, or paid off etc.
Then you’ll realise that you’ve been taken over by the weakest, stupidest schoolyard bully in history. And you’ll be the laughing stock on a global scale.Yet all of this could have been avoided if he had been arrested and put in to court for the treasonous shit in 2021.
Hell, it still can be avoided now, but it’ll take the average American to have a backbone and get out there and fight. Which also won’t happen.Tldr… and don’t pretend you know anything about me from some vague comments online. You live in your fear and stay paralyzed believing everyone will and live in your shame of being a coward. It won’t be me.
Firstly, the ‘you’ in all this isn’t you specifically. It’s the average American.
Secondly, speaking of average Americans, I’m not one of them. I’m not even from that continent.
No, I’m an average guy who simply cannot believe what ‘you’ -the American people- have let taken over them and their country.
I could actually believe an evil genius doing it. But not a simpleton like tRUMP, it boggles the mind.Thirdly, you “tl;dr’d”…well if you can’t be bothered to actually read for 1 minute in a post then, and maybe I’m wrong, but I doubt you’re the type to get out and fight for your country. Maybe you’ll do a small protestation and then look around for other people to do something is more your thing…
Again… tldr nor will i entertain your cowardice. You stay scared… i have been out in the streets… i am still out in the streets and i will be in the streets until they pull my cold dead body out after fighting…
What are you doing, scolding strangers on the internet to feel better about yourself staying home doing nothing… You’re pathetic, not me. 🥰
Cheers traitor…
Tl;dr yank sad cunt
My local branch of the ICE Enforcement and Removal division is not answering calls. It rings and rings without end.
Oh thank God! I through the news was quiet today! So now we’re arresting judges. Checks and balances go out the window. Now its just a clear dictatorship.
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So shoot first, ask questions later?
Shoot first, ask questions never.
You want to ask questions? You get shot first
Ah, si, si, Bien. Yo comprendo la instructions.
Please remember: the ICE “arrests” are KIDNAPPINGS BY NON-UNIFORMED CIVILIANS. UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.
If you see a gang of 4 dudes with beards and guns and jeans and polo shirts … treat it like the kidnapping it is.
It would be great to see people stand up to these kidnappings. Maybe even some good guys with guns
I get your sentiment and feel the same way, but that’s just adding death to the equation. I honestly think that is exactly what they want. If they detain you, you still have access to lawyers and others who are working to protect these people. If you’re dead, you can’t to any of that. You can’t defend yourself. The action alone will make you a ‘terrorist’ and therefore justify their actions.
It fucking sucks.
You have access to lawyers???
Not a single person that I’m aware of that got shipped off to El Salvador had a fair trial. This isn’t the US you know anymore. You don’t get a trial if they don’t want you to have one.
El Salvador is a death sentence, with a load of abuse on top. Better to break some ICE and be ended, than to live out your final days in a concentration camp.
An absurd suggestion. ICE agents looking to disappear you are merely volunteers for America’s new Necronaut Program. Necronauts are needed for the upcoming assassination of God, and invasion of heaven.
You wont get a chance to defend yourself when they bag you up and send you to El Salvador. You can die in the streets protecting yourself or you can die in a gulag 5000 miles away. Your choice
If an ICE agent dies they can’t harm anyone else
If they detain you, you still have access to lawyers and others who are working to protect these people.
Have you been skipping the news for weeks?
No. There are plenty of lawyers and groups (ACLU) working to get these people to a judge. Hell, even the Supreme Court ruled that the deportations must stop to give them due process.
Are they following those orders? I don’t think so.
But to say that there aren’t people fighting for these people is just flat out, blatantly and categorically wrong.
How does Muhmud Khalil have a lawyer if what I said was wrong?
Have you been skipping the news for weeks?
You are wrong though. The majority get shipped off no lawyers no nothing. Just gone.
You seem to be choosing the few people who were able to get a lawyer in time… In your hypothetical, that is not guaranteed or even something I’d bet on. And you are also pointing out that they won’t obey judges orders anyways so… I’m very confused as to what argument you think you are making.
Anyone who sees anyone being kidnapped should do their civic duty to stop it. Just because it suddenly seems to be government representatives that are doing the kidnapping now does not change that. You don’t know which it is.
I do wonder how many people have already been disappeared with no cameras around and they are just “missing” according to their families who can’t/don’t want to go to the cops in case it was the cops all along.
access to lawyers
I don’t believe it would work out that way if you are detained and don’t already have numbers lined up. They are already skipping due process anyway…
I don’t want violence. I just want to remind people that these are illegal government kidnappings.
It. Fucking. Sucks. Indeed.
This is not okay.
This is a coup
And thus, the Night of Long Knives begins.*
Edit: The AP, as of 15 min ago has posted an update: “Dugan was taken into custody by the FBI on Friday morning on the courthouse grounds, according to U.S. Marshals Service spokesperson Brady McCarron. She appeared briefly in federal court in Milwaukee later Friday before being released from custody. Her next court appearance is May 15.”
Thank goodness, she has been released- even if she is still going on trial for a trumped-up charge.
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That’s just the official language. They may not kill her, but they are going to remove anyone that gets in their way is what this says to me.
They’re going to use her as an example for the justification to arrest other judges as well. This is unprecedented and is going to lead to open violence in the streets.
Thee is not going to be a violent uprising people are to comfortable and lazy.
Fuck off with this rhetoric, please. While we aren’t going around torching ICE/cop vehicles and rioting, it doesn’t mean we aren’t doing anything at all. From protesting with millions across the country and world, to gun purchases and training, to local community outreach and support, things are not stationary.
The world news media is focused on the administration and pussyfooting around the lies and manipulation the administration keeps spewing, there’s no media clicks to be had for preparation stories. It’s not to the point of violence in the streets, yet, but that doesn’t mean we aren’t preparing for the possibility.
You wanna be shitty toward the American government as a Canadian, I’m all for it. But please don’t conflate this administration with the American population at large. We are not our government and despite no news coverage, we are not idle.
It doesn’t have to match. It just has to rhyme.
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If it’s true. These could be manufactured charges. I don’t trust Patel or the Trump administration to be honest about that.
Patel in his tweet wrote that the FBI believes Dugan “intentionally misdirected federal agents away” from Ruiz as agents were attempting to arrest him at her courthouse.
“Thankfully our agents chased down the perp on foot and he’s been in custody since, but the Judge’s obstruction created increased danger to the public,” Patel said in the post.
And they all clapped at the end.
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That’s if they give the judge due process, and don’t just immediately claim she’s guilty- kinda like they’re doing to people they’re deporting already. Not a stretch to just skip her due process at this point.
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We can play what-if all day long, but that doesn’t make it true.
Unarmed liberals need to think about arming themselves.
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We are a long way off from getting rid of capitalism. Best to deal with the liberals and work toward moving left from there. The US has a long way to go.
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She asked the ICE agents to wait for the end of the hearing to arrest him.
So they arrested her.
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Archive.is link to CNN story to get around paywall
Kash Patel also took down the statement claiming she misdirected them.
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Loading my firearms as we speak
Mine stay loaded. 6 mags for the rifle. It seems like overdoing it to my wife but I will not go to a camp. The shit RFK has proposed puts people like me in danger, even though I’m a cis straight white male. Even if I wasn’t on the list so to speak, I would be armed and ready because the people they have targeted are my countrymen. Citizen or not.
Fucking idiot racists can’t get it through their heads that they’re not going to stop with brown and trans people.
The problem with the MAGA/Nazi comparison is not that MAGA isn’t as evil, it’s that they’re less competent.
it’s that they’re less competent
Not sure if that’s true actually, the Nazis were supremely incompetent as well. It just doesn’t take that much competence to smash a delicate balance like the separation of powers. You basically need control of one the three branches of government and you are good to try, Trump controls two and this news is about him smashing the third.
And why is that a problem? It sounds like a hindrance to them, which is a definite good thing.
Stupid is not the same as harmless. They routinely harm themselves gleefully. They can’t comprehend the full consequences of their own actions. That makes them dangerous.
I didn’t say they were harmless. I said their incompetence only helps their opposition.
The Nazis were more competent and still lost. How would being less competent than that help them in any way?
They are causing generational damage to the country. Just because their incompetence doesn’t help them doesn’t mean it isn’t still hurting us. That’s the opposite of helping.
Again, I never said they weren’t causing harm. You’re conflating the concepts of aid and beneficence.
Trump and his ilk being in power is not beneficial to the country, but their sheer stupidity in attempting to achieve their goals aids their opposition in stopping them.
And you’re not understanding the type of harm idiots do as opposed to smart evil people. Take immigration. A smart evil person might revoke visas and deport illegal aliens for small things not previously done. They could do this while shielding themselves legally by working within the constraints of the law. The opposition would be powerless because they stay within the law. These ass clowns are deporting legal aliens to countries they have been explicitly protected from being sent to, detaining US born citizens, threatening to deport people to countries they have no connection to, and myriad other completely illegal and unconstitutional things. In a perfect world the opposition could hold them accountable in court. But the opposition is still trying to fight “fair” and twiddling their fucking thumbs.
So this abso-fucking-lutely is not a good scenario because they are stupid. Way more harm is being done and the opposition isn’t doing a fucking thing.
There are many flavors of stupid, many of them are just plain evil.
It’s like a program and it concerns me.
Do you mean pogrom?
So they have arrested two judges. ICE and FBI are traitors.
People should start reporting illegal immigrant MA13 members at the homes or Republican officials
