I’ve got no problem with them, but these are obviously kids who grew up in a different age than me, and it shows, I know what could seem a joke to me could come off different to them. Especially this being In the trades and the type of jokes we make here. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, we’re all trying to just get through the day after all
Edit: I have learned, they used to be female, transitioned to male. (So trans-masc? I’m probably messing that up) Lesbian, and non-binary, thankfully they brought it up which was very helpful as I wasn’t sure if it was appropriate to ask
Im trans with over 10 years of experience in the industry
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There’s really not a lot to it. We just want a basic level of respect and empathy. Respect their chosen names and pronouns, and don’t ask them random questions about being trans unless they’re open to it. Trust them when/if they talk about their experiences, they know more about themselves than you do. Reassure them that their job is a safe space.
Happy to answer any questions.
Edit: if you slip up on name/pronouns, simply apologize, correct yourself, and move on. We know people aren’t always trying to be malicious. Hell, my dad still slips up on my pronouns.
Im trans with over 10 years of experience in the industry
The… trans industry? How much does it pay?
Depends on who you ask
And in what currency?
Blahaj and programming socks (the yearly bonus is a Thinkpad)
You’re convincing me to switch careers/gender
I almost forget the free fem&ms (breast mints) :3
Unknown lip filler shots in the parking lot of a Church’s Chicken
Is one tradition IDK how today’s kids do it
Lol gonna get me a job forcefemming people
:3
Please send pricelist.
HEEHAW!
If you wanna go the extra mile, skimming an ally guide for 10 minutes, looking up some terminology and concepts, would reduce awkwardness by a fair bit. I certainly would have avoided a half dozen missteps if I did some reading.
This is super helpful, thank you!
As a trans woman who routinely has to deal with “shop talk” my advice is that since theyre young explain the way that it works to them and let them know how to speak up when shit gets uncomfortable.
Cleaning it up and getting professional and polite would theoretically be great, but the fact is that their career will involve this and if everyone has to clean up their language resentment will build and people will just exclude them. Meanwhile everyone should feel comfortable saying “too far” or “hey you’re hitting a sore spot” or even “not cool”.
This is really truly the best advice.
I am a straight male. But by definition I’m gender fluid. I have endured through my life no end of abuse for this, and it’s nothing close to what my trans partners in the past have experienced.
But in the end, it comes down to having a spine and being able to assert yourself.
Especially in trades, there is no end of ball-breaking and risque dialogue. If you are not able to defend yourself or say okay dude the joking has gone far enough, you are not going to have a happy life and you need to find something else to do to make money.
If we live in the online reality where “ideal” behavior is constantly advocated and expected, we are never going to connect to the truth of life which is that bullshit is everywhere and we have to learn to stand up to it and flow with it.
Probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to do something along the lines of stating upfront that “if anyone in the company does anything to offend you, please report it to the appropriate channels. You’ll have our full support. We’re here to get work done, not to make people feel bad”
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way, But establishing and occasionally reinforcing the fact that they don’t have to tolerate it, that putting up with abuse is not part of their job, and that they have the boss’s backing at the same level of the non-LGBTQ employees should they find themselves being abused or offended, would probably go a decent way in minimizing the risk of something actually bad happening.
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way
Not OP, but you underestimate my foot in mouth capacity.
20 years ago, my sister was dating a jock. Real body builder type. Probably a bigger musclehead than most pro-wrestlers.
What I was trying to convay is that we should make a superhero costume for him to wear, and make a comic book out of it.
What was percieved instead is that he should run around town and suck everybodys nuts in his mouth for their approval.
I DARE you to try to connect how that came out so wrongly worded.
You can’t just leave us hanging like that, how did you word it?
please report it to the appropriate channels
Telling them that you personally will be there for them is really the only guarantee you can make without blindly relying on third parties to act with compassion. So telling them to come to you so that you can then together go through the rest of the process is imo the better idea. They can always choose to just ignore you, but making them go to some shitty HR office by themselves also sucks.
Yeah, I’d only encourage reporting if I knew 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person who would be taking the report is also an ally. And even then, I’d still hesitate to encourage it.
My workplace is… Interesting. I work in an arts department for an employer which doesn’t do a lot of art otherwise. Each department is managed by a specific person in HR. My department happens to be managed by a raging transphobe. We also happen to have the highest amount of trans people per capita than any other department… Because, ya know, art.
Our HR person requires that they use their deadname for all of their work stuff. Their work email uses the initials for their deadname. Their Windows username uses their deadname. Their RFID ID badge and name tag both use their deadname. Et cetera… She claims it is company policy to require official government names on everything.
Except it’s not. That policy doesn’t exist. It’s just something she makes up every time a trans person gets hired. There’s even someone in HR who uses a chosen name for all of their work stuff. They literally share an office. Our hiring manager has tried to go through or around this one specific transphobe multiple times, but gets bounced back to her every single time. Because apparently the “your department has a specific HR person” is a rule that is enforced throughout all of HR, but the deadname thing is only enforced by our specific HR person.
The hiring manager does what he can to insulate them from it, but there are certain things he can’t control. For instance, he orders them new custom name tags, so they don’t have to walk around with their deadname stuck to their shirt. But he can’t order new RFID ID badges, because those are printed by our IT department, and they use whatever name is in the system. He can’t change their windows username, or their work email address. To put things into perspective, our department is over 25% trans or nonbinary. That’s over 5x higher than any other department…
And what are those trans employees going to do? Go to HR to report it? As cops are fond of saying: “We have investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing.”
Re: what are trans employees supposed to do.
At one point the path was documenting disparate behavior and taking up the lawsuit path, but I’m pretty sure my employer could write transgender on the reason for termination line and the eeoc won’t touch it under this administration
“… and if I accidentally say or do something offensive, tell me and I’ll try to learn better.”
This whole thread is very good
Well maybe only say this if it’s true
I can’t speak for trans people, but i would expect that the best course of action is to be yourself and dont mock anyone. You can rib and have a laugh, but dont open with a whole script of trans jokes. Get to k ow them, like you would with anyone and learn the boundaries naturally. If you think of them as different, you will be on edge the whole time and are more likely to mess up.
If you make any mistakes, just be sure to apologise, and i am sure any of them would understand. Ultimately, as far as i understand it, trans people just want to be accepted and allowed to be them selves and be a part of society. The only way that happens is if we dont treat them differently, whether thans positively or negatively.
If you call somebody by their name, you can never mess up their gender.
Ok Alex, Shelby, Erin. Unless you mean like if you ignore the entire concept and rely solely on their name with no formalities.
I think they meant to just avoid using pronouns.
Which is an awkward and strange way to speak to people.
There are actually people who prefer you not to use pronouns when referring to them, and indeed always use their name. Might be awkward at first, but you get used to it.
People can prefer lots of stuff, “this aspect of the English language is not to apply to me” is a lot of cognitive load to ask for.
Treat them like anyone else by default and make accommodations if you need to and it’s reasonable.
You’re asking with good intentions, but the best answer for any group will always be that. Shit, not even by groups. On a human by human basis just do that, there’s a crazy amount of human variation and it’s not always obvious.
Well, I think it’s of upmost importance to hire a private security firm to guard the bathrooms. Anyone entering or exiting those bathrooms will now be required to submit to a genital confirmation. We’ll have tighter security on those bathrooms than TSA guarding the airports from unauthorized water bottles, and 2 inch pocket knifes.
Because as we all know, urinating into a toilet, surrounded by makeshift stall walls, can be the most offensive thing in the world if you don’t share the same set of genitals as everyone else in the world! Especially since those stslls intentionally leave a gap, so we can spy on others as their peeing. That’s how important these genitals in bathrooms are! Gotta follow all the correct protocol for emptying your bladder!
I say all this to say that yesterday I peed on a tree outside, and nobody gives a shit.
As for your coworkers? Just make a concentrated effort to remember what they prefer as their gender so you don’t say “she” instead of “he”.
The only one that confuses me is “they”, but it’s still refering to just one person. Luckily I don’t know anyone like that, because that one I’m sure I’d constantly accidently fuck up.
The only one that confuses me is “they”, but it’s still refering to just one person. Luckily I don’t know anyone like that, because that one I’m sure I’d constantly accidently fuck up.
I ran into a person a long time ago on Lemmy that asked that people use ‘it/its’ as pronouns. Even for second person- so not they/them/you/yours, it/its. Absolutely broke my brain.
I saw that once on fetlife, but I assumed that was a sex thing. The whole profile was based around this guy being degraded, and humiliated, but he kept refering to himself in the 3rd person as “it”.
I didn’t realize that was another gender identity. I just thought it was a fetish thing.
You’re not a dick for getting someone’s pronouns wrong… You’re a dick if you intentionally and continuously misgender them on purpose.
I still mess up my sister’s spouse. They’re NB, but kept their name, hobbies, etc. To me, they’re the exact same awesome person they’ve always been, so I still screw up and call them by male pronouns.
I 100% support them, but I screw up and it feels bad.
Exactly. Sure it sucks when it happens by accident, but it’s to be expected to some extent. It’s when someone is doing it intentionally to fuck with you that it really gets under your skin. It’s disrespectful.
Well, I have had two people tell me very rudely that I’m an asshole because I got their pronoun wrong because they had it at the start of the presentation somewhere. And I also have had dozens more who corrected me politely a couple of times and then I’d just remember the right pronouns.
Assholes are assholes magrinalized or not.
Just treat them with respect like anyone else. There are 3 topics to avoid in any work place for anyone: religion, politics, and sex life. That’s just a good general rule for all forced mixed company situations.
Avoiding politics might be wise on some level, but by all means do talk about unionizing.
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Just start saying ‘they’ for everyone that’s work related. No matter on LGBT status.
Makes it easier to not fuck up.It’s a good place to start. Sometimes a trans person wants gendered pronouns. But it’s better to use something neutral than to use the wrong one. I have always found that if you use the actual right pronouns, even once, it shows you are trying and that is appreciated forever.
So misgender 95-99% of people? Okay then.
This they gets it.
you’d use something like “person” to replace “guy” since “guy” is not a pronoun like he/she/they.
Right it was meant to be facetious but I appreciate you posting this nonetheless.
I like them and folks
I assume op is English speaking, but just fyi this doesn’t work in every language, would make things a lot simpler.
I already do this with because of how many people I know and work with that have names not exclusively used by men or women.
People are seriously downvoting this?? Hot dayum lemmy really is growing!
I work with enough foreigners that I almost HAVE to do this since I rarely see them face to face and have no real indicators aside from their name. If your name is 20 characters long and 18 of them are consonants, I’m gonna use “they” at work, just to avoid any undue offense. So far, if someone had a problem with me it was because of my employer, not my own words or behavior.
þey
As a trans person, no, do not do this. This is known as degendering people. It shows a total disregard for putting forth any effort to understand or respect others. We always know when people do this because it is still misgendering when you know their pronouns are not they/them.
While using they/them pronouns for all queer people or using a person’s name instead of a pronoun might feel easier for certain people, this is also a form of misgendering called “degendering.”
https://lgbtq.ucsf.edu/pronouns-101
It feels gross, it’s not a viable solution.
If you’re going to take people’s honest attempts at being polite as an attack, you’re going to have a bad life.
Hey, enby here. While I definitely benefit from they being a default I have enough binary trans friends who have this experience. What the person you are replying to is giving you is something referred to as nuance. A solve put forward by a well meaning cis person doesn’t automatically work just because it seems like it should to you. Sometimes it causes new problems and when someone tells you about them it’s a good idea to not assume it’s them trying to be a dick or difficult about something but actually explaining why that solve isn’t always a good thing.
If your intention is to make a trans person actually comfortable instead of getting defensive then listening when these things come up instead of telling them they are trying to be trouble on purpose is the play.
Not everything works for every trans person and inside the trans community there is something sometimes referred to as “the coward’s they”. It’s a well known phenomenon where a physical transition gets to a certain point the brain stops easily registering and sorting someone as being their birth sex because they seemlessly look and act as their gender so the automatic neurological system of assigning them a sex value flips fully to the new and desired setting. You see it on conservative media sometimes where they slip up and use the actual correct pronouns and have to correct themselves back over to using the wrong pronouns… Problem being is it causes the same mental redirect issues for a Conservative actively dodging the automatic reaction as learning to use Non-binary pronouns so as a compromise these people use “they” instead because it is easier to trick the sorter and strand themselves in the safe neutral ground where they can identify a person as “not actually a woman/man” without triggering their audience by using correct pronouns for a trans person.
When you use they/them pronouns for a binary trans person it’s interpreted by the brain of the trans person as you seeing and reacting to all the aspects of their body that makes them visibly trans and your brain’s automatic sex recognition system sorting them into this “not enough” category. It’s effectively less hurtful than full misgendering… But it still pings the bit of the brain that is seeing their own body through your perception via your words. It causes they same dysphoric reaction where their mind picks over all the parts of their body that would cause you to react by misgendering or degendering them. The whole point of preferred pronouns is to help us stop that mental reaction from happening as much.
It is perfectly safe to use they/them pronouns for cis people who do not have dysphoric reactions at all and for non-binary people who actively use those pronouns but if someone rocks up looking like they are trying to project a full binary situation it’s worth going for the full binary pronoun option because they are specifically putting in the work to be as obvious as possible so that people know that’s what they want.
Victim blaming and belittling other people’s problems is also lame, try not to do that, either.
“Ow this hurts me please stop”
“If you take this as an attack, you’re dumb and will be miserable, so just don’t”
Edit: that being said, if it’s an honest attempt, that’s chill af. But you can never really tell anybody’s motives, so here’s this advice on what to do instead(see above article). ‘The path to hell is paved with good intentions’, etc.
I’m gonna assume you mean well, but can you see where it’s probably better to just learn and respect somebody’s pronouns? I don’t think it’s that tough, is it? Like if you really don’t know, just ask. Using they/them is fine in that meantime 👍 but like learning somebody’s name, you should probably put some effort in at some point.
I think where you’re messing up is making the assumption that the person will stick with “they” even after learning pronouns. Defaulting to they when a person doesn’t know is just the smart, respectful play. As long as the person makes an honest effort to use the correct pronoun when corrected, that’s all that can be asked.
Being respectful is definitely the heart of it. I think it’s important to make a show of goodwill and listen even if you accidentally fuck stuff up. We’re all human and make mistakes, and like you say, it’s the honest effort that makes all the difference and is all that’s ever really asked.
You really put words in my mouth and seem to be a very negative human being.
I’m sorry, let’s start over.
Hi, what’s up?
No thanks
Did I do something to insult you?
Use they, unless you know their pronouns. Unfortunately, a lot of people use “they” because they don’t want to use the correct pronouns and it seems more innocent than just overtly misgendering someone.
I work with an enby and we use they/them. It often confuses people because sometimes we say a sentence then sub he/her for they and there isnt enough context for anyone to know who were talking about. I can’t imagine how strange it would be to only use they/them. Race and gender are our go to descriptors you’d get used to it pretty quick tho
This is not a comprehensive list, but you should probably avoid talking about your sex life.
oh hi mark
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But I’m a hooker
In that case, you’re just talking shop
then let your clients fill in the blanks, even if that’s letting them believe this is your first time. unless you think you can charoe extra for that. then do
Yes.
But how can I impress people with my competitive qualities? I had fourteen sex last night, and before that I did four sets of three sex at a time.
I’m even the speedruns any% TAS WR holder at 3.19 seconds.
Do my colleagues not need to know about this???
You can mention it by asking about office etiquette on Lemmy.
Ah nice one cheers friend!
I’m trans, and have also worked with trans kids. Sometimes outed myself when it was safe - showing young trans men that yes, you can be a man.
It really comes down to “what name and pronouns would you me to call you by?”
If you want to go above and beyond: “would you like me to correct/step in for you if someone calls you by the wrong names/pronouns?” I feel this is a place where adult advocates can have good impact.
“Does your family know/should I use your legal name when talking to your family?”
See the child as a person who deserves dignity and respect, who is in a vulnerable position and does need unconditional support. Which is true for all children. You don’t have to put up a progress flag or wear a rainbow pin - these can certainly be very good things to do - but at the end of the day, just honor the child.
If you struggle with pronouns, apologize casually when the pronouns come up.
As a fellow old, the kids don’t seem to necessarily get it that my brain is wired pretty hard not to change pronouns, but they do seem to appreciate the effort and the discussion that it’s a challenge rather than just fucking it up with no explanation.
Otherwise, be mindful that they take a lot of shit for parts of themselves that are background attributes for the rest of us. They can get pretty tired of it. A friendly person who regards them as just people may be the best thing they can get from anyone.
Your job is to train them. They’re people. You’re a person. Just go with that
I think if you love as a person them you’ll be good.
That’s what I do and it’s worked out pretty great!
