The government has “strongly condemned” chants at Glastonbury Festival from rap punk duo Bob Vylan calling for “death” to the Israeli military and broadcast live on the BBC.
Rapper Bobby Vylan led chants of “free, free Palestine” and “death, death to the IDF [Israel Defense Forces]” during their set, which came just before Belfast rap trio Kneecap.
A BBC spokesperson said some of the comments were “deeply offensive”, adding it had issued a warning on screen about “very strong and discriminatory language”. The set will not be available to rewatch on BBC iPlayer.
Police said they were reviewing videos of comments made by Bob Vylan and Kneecap to decide whether any offences had been committed.
“Death to the IDF” is not what I would chant, but it’s honestly mild compared to the kinds of slogans (eg. “Death to Arabs” and “Let your village burn”) West-funded, West-supported, West-armed, and West-protected-from-accountability Israeli fanatics chant before committing actual fucking atrocities. Hell, it’s mild compared to the Amalek rhetoric of Israeli state leadership.
Edit: why is “death to the IDF” mild compared to “death to Arabs”? You can choose to not join or to leave the IDF (it might cost you some jail time, but if that’s the price for keeping one’s soul, so be it). You can at the very least not self-identify with it and distance yourself from what it has become. Basically, there are many off ramps out of the IDF. There are no ramps off of existing as an Arab.
You can choose to not join or to leave the IDF (it might cost you some jail time, but if that’s the price for keeping one’s soul, so be it). You can’t choose to not be an Arab.
I see this delusional and out of touch argument being made all over the internet, and it’s so damn annoying. These takes are always from chronically online larpers who never leave the comfort of their house, they always say shit like:
“why don’t people of Iran just overthrow the theocracy?”
“why don’t the people of North Korea just topple the Kim dynasty?”
“why don’t Russian conscripts just refuse to fight in Ukraine?”
“why don’t Israelis just refuse to be in the IDF?”
“why don’t Americans just have a revolution?”
Could it be because that reality is not that simple? It’s easy to sit there in your dark room all day dreaming about being a heroic revolutionary, but in reality? You wouldn’t do shit because you understand that the consequences are a lot harsher in reality than in your imagination. This over simplistic view of the world just boils away the complexity and nuance of humanity. Nobody is willing to risk their freedom, stability, future, or life to appear moral or have a “clean soul”. When shit gets real and you’re in the same position as all these people, you’ll end up doing the same as them. If reality was that easy then we wouldn’t have tyrannical regimes or wars or exploitation, but we do. Trying to blame a 20 year conscript for being forced to serve in the military by extremist leaders is stupid and unhelpful. They’re not making the situation better, but it’s also not their fault they’re in that position in the first place.
Yet you don’t use this excuse for hamas. It suck that they had to do a terrorist act for people to talk again about 77 years of oppresion by israel. The idf leaving gaza to control it from outside and continuing occupying the west bank, demolishing house, torturing paleatinians , raping them and killing them make it hard for hamas to resist following international law.
Would you have use the same argument for nazis to follow hitler?
Don’t you also see how many idf soldiers are filming themselves mocking plaestinians and having fun?
My point is universal. Actually A lot pro Israelis use this very argument a lot:
“Why don’t Gazans just rise up and overthrow Hamas?”
As if that simple. People talk about Israel on here a lot, but they constantly overlook that Hamas is a tyrannical terrorist group against Gazans as well. They rule through fear and violence. People who talk about them being a legitimate resistance group forget that these are the same people who have systematically chased out the Christian minority in Gaza, killed their opposition in the strip, banned free speech, and they killed/kidnapped/torutured anybody they don’t like by saying they work for the enemy. Netanyahu was literally funding them in their early years, so you know that they don’t have the best interests of Palestinians in mind.
It’s really hard for people to rise against tyranny. It’s really hard for people to stand up to the powerful. Things like bravery and morally right no matter what are cute ideas that people can talk about on the internet, but in the real world nobody is going to give up their lives.
Also keep in mind, calling out this stupid point doesn’t mean that someone is now magically a Hamas supporter who advocates for terrorism nor does the opposite make someone an Israeli supporter who advocates for war crimes.
I can use the same excuse and say Hamas has no choice but to persecute who oppose them because they fear that the resistance will simply die and Israel will continue it’s occupation with nobody stopping them. Also Israel kicked more charitarians than Hamas ever will . At least 50k of the nekba refugees was Christians . I don’t deny anything Hamas did that is terrible and criminal
All your mental gymnastic won’t change the fact , Palestinians has the right to fight and kill idf soldiers that are in Gaza committing a genocide . The only place where idf can die is in gaza or the west bank where Palestinians has the right to armed resistance . So yeah death to the IDF
Israel just allow funds to enter Gaza they didn’t fund Hamas it was Qatar who id , it’s the same Israel who allow funds to goes to the Palestinians authority. Israel control everything in and out of gaza . The Palestinian authority is the one collaborating with Israel, crushing west bank resistance and do nothing against illegal settlers . So i wonder for you who is the real resistance? Please don’t tell me there is none because it never happened in history
I would to a degree. I was alive when the ‘war on terror’ started, the recruiting starts at childhood and you can join at 17 that is no where near enough to make an entirely informed choice like that. And in the US if you are poor and want to go to college or get healthcare you really do not have many other options.
Hamas and the taliban are absolutly evil organizations. But if your country is being occupied and they are the only ones you seem to be fighting back then what do you do?
You don’t need to be informed to know that you shouldn’t kill civilians purposely in wars and torture people lie it happened in Guantanamo bay and Abu Ghraib. There is still a big difference between the aggressor war crimes in position of power and resistance groups trying to do everything to end occupation including atrocities like in 7 of October.
I think if Palestine is ever liberated , war crimes from both side should be held accountable
I agree. But we also need to look at the lies they are told and how pervasive those lies are recruiters are basically child groomers. Very few people join because they think they are going to get to kill civilians.
Again plenty and plenty of idf soldiers are filming themselves enjoying and being proud of their crimes you can’t claim that they didn’t know what they are doing. IDF is pure pure pure evil a lot worse than Hamas
The people filming it would be the absolute worst of them or maybe the IDF only uses the most absolute sociopaths for their combat roles. The dude cleaning floors or whatever to avoid going to prison should not be held in the same regard as the dude executing children.
And yet we are all accountable for our actions.
This is true, but we also have to acknowledge that things aren’t simple or as black and white as they seem.
And yet, genocide and ethnic cleansing of innocent people absolutely is a black and white issue. Its not subject to debate and its not a grey area. The commitments were made and the treaty documents signed.
any of the results of the recent polling in Israel seem very grey to you? https://archive.ph/Tjoj3. (Haaratz poll, architve.todayed it because its behind a paywall)
47% of Israelis want to murder every living non jewish human in Palestine.
56% want to expel Israeli citizens who arent Jewish.
93% say that the biblical command to kill every descendent of the tribe of Amalek (and their children and livetsock) still applies today somehow. So they want to kill palestinian’s pets now too? Just 7% of israelis are against mass murder from their dusty holy book, it seems.
82% want to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian territories.
Ethnic cleansing and genocide based on ethnicity are not compatible with modern society and that’s black and white. There is no wiggle room.
I edited my comment since I made it. Here is the newer version. Bold the bit that I think adresses your concern.
Edit: why is “death to the IDF” mild compared to “death to Arabs”? You can choose to not join or to leave the IDF (it might cost you some jail time, but if that’s the price for keeping one’s soul, so be it). You can at the very least not self-identify with it and distance yourself from what it has become. Basically, there are many off ramps out of the IDF. There are no ramps off of existing as an Arab.
I agree with this.
Uh, I think taking a jail sentence by not joining a fascist military is a little easier than toppling your government. That’s not even a remotely equivalent comparison.
There are plenty of people refusing to join the idf, its not some mystical heroicism. Regardless of how people joined it, a military occupying land and committing a genocide is a legitimate target under international law.
Love that the “just following orders” defense is making a comeback. Just as valid today as during the Nuremberg trials.
The big takeaway from WWII is that the Nazis were evil and responsible for the atrocities that they committed, not the German people. Low ranking soldiers being complacent through coercion is not the same thing as being a leader who has influence over the situation. That’s why we condemn Hitler and the Nazi leaders, and not the foot soldiers.
Your takeaway from WWII is that the guy shoving the kids into the gas chambers should not be condemned? What the fuck is wrong with you?
We absolutely do condemn the foot soldiers and it’s a shame that they have never been held responsible. And we condemn Zionist foot soldiers as well and there needs to be some kind of Jerusalem trials or whatever next where Israelis need to be de-Nazified, Zionism is irredeemable.
Its not though. Do you think a few years in prison will make you a better person? Or having to find a job as a felon or whatever the Israeli equivalent is? you are asking people to do shit no one will ever ask of you and you will never be put in a similar situation. Fuck the IDF, but if you want this to end you have to see the whole picture.
So this is pretty much exactly the line of reasoning that the nazis used to defend their participation in the holocaust. It wasn’t convincing then, and no, it isn’t convincing for the current genocide either.
Then we should be thinking hard about how these countries recruit. I am not saying defend the war criminals, but if you want to fight them you have to see how they work.
Look at all these countries that fought the nazis long ago and how they became more and more fascist afterward. you would think they would be smarter then this, but it is clear all the wrong lessons have been learned.
Sure, but that’s a whole different convo from finding “your honor, I had to murder the 5 year old; the alternative was a couple of months in prison and flipping burgers for the rest of my life” at all agreeable.
Agreed. But it sure does not feel like people here want to make that distinction.
I think we should disallow any travelers or trade from Israel into my country. No currency of fascists should be traded with dollars, until as a state they atone for their crimes.
Maybe? Isreal would still have the better weapon platforms then its regional neighbors and i think will more likely use a nuke in a situation like that if it feels desperate enough.
If they use a nuke then they are done.
Why would you think that republicans would not continue their support of them?
By the way, do apply the same logic to the Hamas fighters.
Weren’t some of the attackers on Oct 7th literal children? I remember reading reports of some of them being teenagers… and yes, the same thing applies to them. A leader like Sinwar and a child soldier should not get the same blame, that’s just silly.
You can totally not join the IDF there are many people not doing it it just strips you off the opportunity to get lucrative army jobs and you are definitely being stigmatized in Israeli society and potentially even your own family, but you are not risking your personal safety by not joining this genocidal apartheid occupation force. It’s a question of taking a stand. Do you want to be at the very least complicit in war crimes being committed, yes or no?
AFAIK you can also not join the IDF by simply being extremely religious.
Yea, Orthodox Jews have total exemption from joining the armed forces. If you really don’t want to murder children and steal land, go study the Talmud. No excuse.
For some of them it’s “if you don’t want to risk your life in the armed forces, but really, really want other people to go and murder children and steal land so you can benefit, go study the Talmud”.
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You’re saying it as if this is common, it’s absolutely not. Russian defections and desertions to Ukraine and vice versa are very rare, and for good reason. The chances of you successfully running away are slim compared to failing and getting killed by either Russia or Ukraine. If it was as easy as you think it is then number of causalities among troops in this war wouldn’t be in the millions.
But this also ignores how these are not comparable situations at all. The Gaza war is nothing like the Ukraine war, where are IDF conscripts supposed to defect to? It’s not like there’s anything in Gaza, they can’t leave through legal channels, and all their neighboring countries will kill them the moment they find out they’re in the IDF. It’s a difficult situation to be in.
This is just not true. In apartheid Israel if you’re Jewish you are very privileged and you can deny service. Also, no one is gonna kill you, Israelis travel to Egypt, Jordan, etc. just fine unfortunately. And most of them are either still in the IDF or were part of it at some point. They join the IDF because they want to and because they are Zionists, not because they are forced to.
Idk what kind of bs this is you’re spreading, but just because they’re not the incarnation of Ben Gurion it doesn’t mean they’re innocent. If you are part of an entity that commits war crimes you are complicit.
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No it’s not. Because Netanyahu alone isn’t responsible for Gaza, everyone supporting Zionism is and especially those who are in the Zionist army that is the one carrying out the genocide.
I’m so tired about people only criticizing Netanyahu. Sure he is the worst of worst for Palestinians but every single goddamn prime was oppressing Palestinians . The problem is the fundamental ideology that run Israel zionism
Absolutely! It’s in the choice. You consciously choose to be part of the IDF, you aren’t born into it, and thus it’s not a hateful statement. You know, except for BBC weaklings
It’s about as narrowly targeted a chant as you can get.
It’s not about jews. It’s not about israelis. It’s specifically the army of israel. If that’s not narrowly targeted enough, what’s acceptable? “Down with the members of the IDF who intentionally target civilians but not those members of the IDF who are willing to risk a court martial to make sure that they only attack valid military targets?” Doesn’t make a very good chant.
Good point, the IDF, being an occupying army, under international law is absolutely a legitimate target for violent armed Palestinian resistance
Please show me where the UK Government condemned “death to the Arabs” chants from Israelis.
The British Government considers being Arab as synonymous with being a terrorist. Not, incidentally, any differently than how Israelis see them.
Of course, the Brits were a colonial power that spent centuries quelling domestic revolts in order to extract natural resources and exploiting cheap labor. Also, not that different from their Israeli peers.
Any negative statements toward Isreal are considered antisemitism by the right. What a joke
The right, who are outright Nazis claiming to be against “anti-semitism” is such a fucking ludicrous joke.
Because Israel validates their ethnostate ideas.
If i could invent a time machine and send them to a wwii internment camps I would. That way they could see what real antisemitism looks like. Not this scapegoat bs they are doing today
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Wonder what happened here
I said death to the idf
I was gonna joke world would remove it but didn’t think they actually would
Who removed this? Death to the IDF is a call for defense, not a call for violence. Death to the IDF. The IDF is an organization. Death to that doesn’t have to mean violence. If the Israeli government would disband the IDF that would be a death of the IDF.
But let me be clear, soldiers committing genocide should be stopped by all means possible. Death to the IDF and the soldiers enacting genocide.
They want palestinian to not have right to selfdefence while claiming to oppose genocide, so weird
Lemmy world is thoroughly subverted by state actors.
I had an account there and left because my registration e-mail address for that account was leaked to Israel and I started getting e-mails in my native language from a Tel-Aviv base entity inviting me to attend one of their “Get to know Israel” online courses.
Not even a Moderator has access to the database with the user’s e-mails, only a server Administrator.
The use of “moderation” in trying to shape perceptions in any large Lemmy forums hosted in Lemmy.world is to be expected.
Do you have proof of this? Did you have a unique email used for Lemmy world? Signed email headers please
Sure, if you give me a minute I’m just gonna dox myself to satisfy you, random Internet stranger.
Interesting. Maybe you could share more info regarding this?
80k dead and 130k injured, starvation, displacement, murdered by settlers.
But a chant is “deeply offensive”. Take your fucking offense, fold it until it’s all sharp corners and shove it up your ass, BBC.
and being a nazi isn’t.
I support it because I’m with “The People.”
💀💀2IDF
FUCK THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE
IDF are a bunch of genocidal terrorist fascist fucks
Based
Starmer, fall on a stake.
BBC is a bunch of smegheads from the past.
Clearly you are not a bot if you can say smeeeee… Smeeehhhh… Smeeeeeee… Heeeeeeeaaaa…
UK and US thought police on patrol. Bought and owned by the rich fatcats to promote their personal religious agenda using the state monopoly of the use of force on protestors not doing any harm to anyone. Disgusting.
Of course, everybody knows that “free, free Palestine” is “very strong and discriminatory language” if you are member of genocidal IDF.
tomorrow’s headlines: bbc bars publication of details of cancer treatment.
such information, they say, is deeply offensive to the horrendous disease regardless of how many young, innocent victims it claims.
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Hey col, let’s sprinkle in some real antisemitism. Unbelievable.
With the way the leader of Israel was killing journalists. It really did make the Jews control the media conspiracy, actually true, pretty funny if you think about it. But yes, that statement did have the airs of racism
There is something going on though right?
There absolutely must be Zionist Jews in influential positions in American and probably the UK who have the interest of Israel above the interest of their country. There is loads of funding for pro Israel groups.
The whole antisemitic propaganda thrown at Labour is real questionable.
Pro Israel groups have been caught rewriting history on Wikipedia.
Without being able to talk about it how do we know what’s real and what’s a conspiracy?
Like just talking about things that are true isn’t wrong. The whole banking system is too much. But what is right?
Ridiculous, there is no need to invent a conspiracy. Isreal and the UK have aligned economic and military interests. There is no jewish shadow banking syndicate pulling the strings, there simply an understanding that the UK benefits from a state like Israel existing in the middle east and that if it didn’t exist the UK’s ability to project military force would be worse off and UK businesses would be worse off.
Rich people just love Fascism and here’s an ethno-Fascist nation for some of them, claiming that their ethnicity makes them superior to everybody else, so of course they’ll tend to support them.
It’s not at all surprising that the moneyed elites amongst the Jewish People would side with a regime that says they’re inherently superior, same as the German elites sided with the Nazis. I mean, back in early Nazi times even the British moneyed elites were very drawn to Nazism and its ideas of racial superiority (there’s even a photo of young princess Elizabeth being taught by her uncle - the then King - how to do a Nazi salute) up until the point Germany actually invaded Poland.
You see the very wealthy supporting supremacists of their ethnicity all throughout History, no “conspiracy” necessary.
Historically, quite independently of ethnicity you’ll find it’s the well educated middle classes that most resist the pull of chauvinism, and that seems to be exactly what we’re seeing amongst the Jewish People now that the self-proclaimed representative of them all as full revealed itself as a Genocidal project.
I didnt say there was a shadow banking industry, in fact I said the opposite.
Completely missed my point.
Then better stop the genocide before antisemitism gets normalized. It will increase the longer this continues.
How does banking factor into the genocide in gaza, or did you just reach for whatever jewish stereotype came to mind first?
It’s extremely easy to criticize Israel without being anti-Semitic and yet you failed spectacularly and have shown zero self reflection after getting correctly called out on it. Pathetic.
Oh, I’m not criticizing Israel. That’s a done conclusion. I’m questioning why politicians in other countries go along with this. As far as I can see, and that’s clearly shown, there’s very good lobbying, information campaigns and lots of money. Even the Eurovision contest was full of money and influencing. I’m assuming influence alone can’t do this, certainly not after protests. That leaves money. Who has a lot of money, meaning trillions, and reason to use it as leverage? Certain banks. Of course that’s forbidden to say, but that omerta thing going on is now part of the stereotype.
What streotype did he use?
You’d like to claim that being against Israeli murder is antisemitism and thats never been true. Its dishonest, it’s arguing via a category error, and communicating in bad faith.
Its a cheap facile con that also serves as a slight against the person you are talking to, by using such a stupid argument in a seemingly serious manner.
You’re not as clever as you think. You’re just weaponizing peoples wish for a just system to your own malignant purposes. We all see you.
Ben Gurion famously said of the zionist crimes of the Nakba in 1948, “The old will die and the young will forget.” But we will not forget. This will never be normalized, and Israel will remain a pariah people. That is a danger to global jewry and is itself the true antisemtisim thats happening today. Its being perpetrated by zionists like yourself.
Sure, man. Repeating antisemitic conspiracy ideology is helping the thing.
Maybe some people should stop reading “The Protocols of the elders of Zion”.
A heavy accusation.
The Guardian newspaper, New York Times, Oxford research, Mondoweiss all cite the quote without any note of it being controversial, so your calling it a conspiracy theory is itself the conspiracy theory, unless you have some proof? Show us all your proof of your libelous accusation that is of similar standing to those 4 sources?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/12/israel1
https://mondoweiss.net/2013/06/the-young-palestinian/
It also is exactly the same sentiment Ben Gurion expressed in so many venues and written letters in very similar wording. Are you denying that this is what – and how Ben Gurion (aka David Gruen before he moved from New York city to Palestine to found Israel) thought? Does your reflex toward revisionist history stretch so far? And you are pivotting from one lie to another aren’t you, because I see you have nothing to say about your previous accusation about “antisemtisim” huh. Well thats fine, I accept your apology as long as you don’t let those lies and slanderous accusations happen again.
Back up your self serving fantastical claims or dont make them. No one here has time for lies.
Wich quote? Did you even read the (now deleted) comment, In answered to?
Repeating antisemitic conspiracy ideology
I don’t know what you want to tell me with that.
If Zionists had any real leverage they could use to control states Spain and Ireland (and to a lesser extent France under Macron) wouldn’t be outspoken advocates for Palestinian rights. The guilt trip is definitely part of it, but also don’t underestimate the scale or pervasiveness of Israeli propaganda. I mean, unless you’re exceptionally educated on Palestinian history at least half the things you believe about the so-called conflict are probably Israeli propaganda., irrespective of what you feel about Israel. I hate to admit it, but they are good at this stuff. Their major Western ally status gained during the Cold War is also not helping.
If Zionists had any real leverage they could use to control states Spain and Ireland (and to a lesser extent France under Macron) wouldn’t be outspoken advocates for Palestinian rights
I’m not sure what has given Spain their perspective but at least in Ireland there is no amount of propaganda you could throw at us to change public perception here, largely on a moral ground, but we also have that sweet, sweet history of oppression. We were all horrified on October 6th but there’s no justification for the current genocide.
Really fucking tired of antisemitism bring bandied about as the reason for our support too. Children are being shot in the street, losing limbs and being starved as a weapon of war FFS. Antisemitism is a real and nasty thing and the word is being cheapened by the hour.
Very happy to have a larger country along for the ride with us. History is on our side. 🇪🇸🤝🇮🇪
Big ups to you! No “skin in the game” but taking the right side. Disappointed in my own government. Luckily basically every regular person I’ve ever spoken with about it agrees with the take… Just the state…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia
The Spanish are a great bunch of lads
Fada beò an Spàinn!
They are a great people and a lot of fun. And deeply distrustful of the state for a lot of reasons. And they and Ireland are increasingly taking up the mantle of leaders of the free world. Germany and the US governments are corrupt and shameful.
Well I learned a lot so thanks. Particularly surprised at the levels that anarchism reached there. I’m listening to the 'revolutions" podcast at the moment (highly recommended) and just coming into the Russian revolutions so I can see the seeds of it.
Have you read the book you linked? Any good?
Aye, true progress was being made and that couldn’t be allowed to happen. Germany’s Blitzkrieg tactics were practised on Spain before they began their expansion.
I tried but I have an unfortunate case of bees in my brain so I didn’t finish it. Need to give it another go. The portion that I read was interesting though!
Who’s the revolutions podcast by?
Edit: https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/revolutions_podcast/ this?
Yeah that’s the lad. The history of Rome is incredible. I only fell into Revolutions because I needed something to fill the gap after history of Rome and his style is very easy listening.
I’m being a bit more picky with the sections I listen to in revolutions but really enjoying it so far.
It’s on Spotify etc if you have that.
Sweet, ta! I listened to The History of Rome a few years ago so I’ll check this one out.
I love how Orwell - being so iconic today - had to be described as “Author of ‘The Road to Wigan Pier’ etc”
Cheers. I’ll give them a read this evening.
And yeah great bunch of lads the Spanish. Absolutely sound in general.
The most obvious genocide since the holocust. You don’t need to know history to know what israel does now right now is terrible
