- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
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So the real problem with calling it a bubble is that countries can’t stop investing in it. It definitely has bubble like qualities, but we have hit a point where we can’t stop investing in it. It’s more an arms race then a bubble.
Except it’s 17x larger & will take the entire US GDP with it.
God damn it, if the US collapses who will supply weapons to all its peaceful democratic allies in the world? I’m super fucking pissed off about this.
The GDP issue is not because of the AI bubble, it’s because of tariffs and the complete destruction of US soft power abroad
And I would almost bet the crash will be about the time the Dems take power, just so the Republicans can whine about the situation they created and blame the Democrats for it.
GOP without fail always wrecks the economy, in what gets forecasted as the last time they will ever be trusted with power again. Dems just get 51% of votes anyway.
The problem with this theory is that it assumes Republicans will give up power to allow the Democrats to govern.
The part of Republicans blaming Democrats is spot on.
Is “US soft power” a euphemism for sowing destruction and proxy wars everywhere? Or do you mean things like the awful show NCIS being barely disguised pro-Israel pro-war propaganda? Like that?
I won’t touch the entertainement / Hollywood reference to soft power as that deserves a discussion in its own right.
But as someone who works with … or used to work with US diplomats abroad on a daily basis, I would urge you to educate yourself and people around you about the myriad of activities that US diplomats are engaged in. Contrary to conventional ‘wisdom’, US foreign policy consists of a lot more than bombing the Middle East and supporting Israel. Nobody talks or knows about all of the other things but I can tell you for a fact that American diplomats were (and in some cases still are) helping a lot of people in Eastern Europe. We were helping a lot of people. Shelters for the homeless, schools and museums for kids, whole new campuses for universities, orphanages, adn the list goes on, and on. There’s a reason why over 75% of state department employees working abroad are not republicans. They are not the people most think they are.
We were doing good work with the Americans here. We were helping children, we were exposing corrupt oligarchs. We were in this fight together, not just in Eastern Europe but all over the world. Yes, even the US Marines stationed at Constanza and Novo Selo, ready to fight should the Russkies anything, deserve respect. As one marine told me recently “Don’t worry, come what may, we will stay and fight with you”.
Then everything changed this year. My old American friends were replaced with incompetent political commissars sent by the new idiocratic regime in DC.
The US marines are still here though, and they are still ready to die. I’m just not sure if its worth it anymore.
TLDR: Educate yourself and resist the temptation to parrot oversimplified narratives. Just because you only know about the bad and don’t care to learn about the good, doesn’t mean the latter doesn’t exist.
Edit: in an attempt to preempt incoming windmills: I detest Trump, Netanyahu and imperialism in general. But that does not mean anything American (or whatever nationality) should be presented as black and white. There are 340 million Americans. Each one of them here is proof that America is not black and white, and neither are its citizens.
Let me guess though, Russia doing the same things is just pure evil or propaganda. Because guess what? Countries don’t do any of the things you mention out of Christian charity, they do it for power and control.
GTFOH with your soft pedaling of this bullshit.
Russia does not do the same. In fact, it does the exact opposite. It would be fantastic if Russia actually supported human rights and the rule of law instead of bombing children’s hospitals like Israel does.
I’m in eastern europe and the last time Russia did anything around here was when my grandparents were starving
helping a lot of people in Eastern Europe
to support Israel and war on Russia
Soft power is always more effective than hard threats, because the corrupt CIA stooges pillaging their economies and contributing to destruction of humanity do so with the dignity that threats and bribes are secret and unobvious sycophancy to the US empire. Soft power means that your pawns are not explicitly exposed as your owned pawns.
That your job makes the colonization mission more effective, all glory to hypno Trump, is a cheaper and more direct path to complete capitulation by the colonial “governor generals”.
I think you are just repeating the same old talking points and conspiracy theories that we’re all well-familiar with without actually adding anything of substance or factology to the conversation.
Just defining what soft power means. Soft extortion and bribery just as bad as extortion and bribery.
Please let this happen.
From the entry for “zaibatsu” on Wikipedia:
Under the Allied occupation after the surrender of Japan, a partially successful attempt was made to dissolve the zaibatsu. Many of the economic advisors accompanying the SCAP administration had experience with the New Deal and were highly suspicious of monopolies and restrictive business practices, which they felt to be both inefficient, and to be a form of corporatocracy (and thus inherently anti-democratic).
The only difference? The zaibatsu actually diversified their operations.
Many of the economic advisors accompanying the SCAP administration had experience with the New Deal and were highly suspicious of monopolies and restrictive business practices
Your country was very different then.
My country? I am from the EU!
Let’s try not to be offensive.
* Puts
redblue glasses on *- Which kind of EU?
The European kind. Not the Extended Universe nor Eastern University.
And that is why Yamaha makes everything from musical instruments to motorcycles
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The entire US economy has been running off of an asset megabubble that demands global dollar recycling via Wall St. and property for decades now. This is much worse than 2008 as there is no cushioning. We will see what 20+ of doubling down looks like in the end.
Houses have value: you can live in them. Yet there was a housing bubble.
Was?
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Anyone notice how far crypto dropped? I think Tesla’s next, then maybe AI at same time or right after
Isn’t crypto being massaged by trump atm, so erratic is kinda the new normal? (And, not erratic from trumps view)
Wasn’t that just a temporary drop so that some whales could get richer on shorts?
Zoom out past a week? 5-10% swings are not uncommon.
Crypto had it’s black monday.
The fall may have been accelerated by portfolio insurance hedging (using computer-based models to buy or sell index futures in various stock market conditions) or a self-reinforcing contagion of fear
Algorithms and feedback loops gummed up all the crypto exchanges and liquidity disappeared.
The crypto tide went out and we all saw who wasn’t wearing any shorts.
Hold up everyone. It’s not a bubble.
“So it is true that valuations are high but, in our view, generally not at levels that are as high as are typically seen at the height of a financial bubble,” said Goldman Sachs strategist Peter Oppenheimer.
He’s from GOLDMAN SACHS LOLOLOLO I THINK THEY WOULD RECOGNIZE A BUBBLE LOL ah fuck me our economy is gonna splode
I mean, what’s he gonna say?
right? I just figured the “it’s not a bubble, guuuuys” crowd could find someone a tiny bit more credible lol
Give me exit liquidity so I can buy the dip?
just short the companies that’ll be the most affected. probably nvidia is a good choice to short right about now.
I wish it were safer to make these sorts of sweeping gambles. Shorting Nvidia right now is like a pretty obvious bet but getting the timing right is the difference between generational wealth and a lifetime of poverty and debt.
I wonder what the people over at Bear Stearns think oh wait they gone.
this made me chortle into my cereal ty
Goldman Sachs also though NINA mortgages were a good idea, and they also thought it was a good idea to bundle bad mortgages in with good mortgages, and find a rater to mark them AAA investments.
And then we saw how that worked out.
yeah, how could this go wrong?
at least after the crash those houses could be lived in. these datacenters are made for one purpose, AI, and really would have to be completely gutted and refurbed for general purposes… fun.
This is fine 🐶☕️🔥
But what will be left after it bursts? At least in cause of the housing bubble - the houses existed physically - what will be after the AI crash? Lots of spare gear sold for cheap?
What was left after the cryptocurrency crash? A whole lot of GPUs that got repurposed for AI. They’ll just get repurposed for whatever extremely computationally intensive thing some computer engineer comes up with. Until that bubble bursts, rinse and repeat. What’s happening is project managers are selling the next big thing to make a lot of capital really quickly to a board of directors.
They’ll just get repurposed for whatever extremely computationally intensive thing some computer engineer comes up with.
these are for AI, purpose built bespoke solutions to LLM problems. they’ll age like fine piss.
they can probably be repurposed as general purpose matrix math accelerators
large market there
Where does the capital come from though? Someone has to pay for the shovels and if there isn’t a profit now, how will they pay for the next bubble?
The capital comes from the profits from other markets. Which comes from exploiting workers. The original investment didn’t just spontaneously expose itself, people chose to flow money into it. They’ll pay for the next bubble with the profits C-suit executives stole from their workers and the little guy. They will take what should have been yours and bet it away on some fever dream that was doomed to fail from the beginning. All in the hopes that they might make their wealth get more outrageously excessive before this bubble bursts and they try again on the next.
The s&p 500 tanks a ton and banks call on loans from these AI hyped companies using the price of the stocks as collateral (previously expected to rise). Credit crunch and now companies tighten the belts even further so higher unemployment again. Federal funds rate gets slashed and those that can manage steady good work during the recovery years will be fine. Everyone else will be struggle busing as usual
Can you elaborate on managing “steady good work”?
Being in a non-federal government job, in a non insane state.
If you have a stable job with good pay or good upward mobility in the company potential and don’t have periods of unemployment, if it has a 401k, you’re 401k is being invested while the market is down. When unemployment is high, the Federal Reserve sets the federal funds rate much lower to try and stimulate the economy. That results in lower rates for consumer loans. So people that have stable jobs that pay well enough can take out loans and/or refinance their current loans to do better than they were.
When the market recovers, you’ve had years of experience that you can now use for job hopping at more senior level roles when the job market recovers. Also a lot of late career people end up consulting for companies large and small with inexperienced staff. Those that didn’t fare well in a career during a market downturn, it’s either stagnation or hardship after hardship
It doesn’t necessarily have to be office/lab work. I know people that grinded the past decade+ in restaurants until an owner would trust them to manage a restaurant including all the supplies and payroll and then trust them enough to partner on a another restaurant and then that be their ticket to financial security. Some in their 30s, some 40s, some 50s. It’s a grind but at least they didn’t end up drug addicts and alcoholics like so many others
This is a really odd take.
you’re 401k is being invested while the market is down
Sure but you just lost half your 401k, including half of what was invested while the market was overpriced.
When unemployment is high, […] That results in lower rates for consumer loans. So people that have stable jobs […] can take out loans
Yes, but lenders also tighten their criteria during these times because even a stable job is dramatically less stable during a recession or depression. It’s very difficult to borrow money in an economic downturn.
When the market recovers, you’ve had years of experience
Sure but if the market didn’t collapse you would still have those years of experience. During a collapse fewer people will have consistent employment.
It’s a grind but at least they didn’t end up drug addicts and alcoholics like so many others
Not sure where you were going with this part.
The universal economic truth is, in times of economic uncertainty the working class does the heavy lifting.
But what will be left after it bursts?
Affordable GPUs? Less pushy AI commercials?
The wealthy will just move on to the next thing to inflate. Capitalists don’t work. They don’t care about anything other than ROI.
I don’t think they care about ROI for real. If they cared none of that would’ve happened because that’s just not how a real businesses are operating. You can burn the investments into R&D to an extent but if the product’s money flow doesn’t show a positive dynamics long enough - you get ready for some soul searching shit. My guess is that a lot of things contributing to AI bubble have something to do with money laundering.
These valuations cannot be tied to ROI, even using Olympic level mental gymnastics. The market would collapse in a millisecond. They are tied to a fictional dimension 78 years in the future where everyone decided to work overtime without collapsing and being four times as focused while the planet magically starts healing itself and no major disaster happens and all wars escalated without destroying any infrastructure or upsetting any populations and the authoritarian revenge hypercapitalist disasterpiece currently boiling over in the global standard host country suddenly is unanimously accepted as a new way of life without a single adverse reactions or any systematic issues and a spontaneous miraculous salvation from the diseases and famine it has maliciously developed due to the Christian god both existing and subscribing to the polar opposite moral and ethical alignment that the elite privileged promille has hallucinated to fit a reality that also somehow pivoted from a complete mass psychosis into firm truth by way of some unforseen quirk in the laws of physics that every great mind and scientists missed that magically flip childish commercial folly into concrete reality without requiring effort and being the first consciousless entity to achieve autonomy and an ability to replicate exponentially without consuming resources and a renneissance of unity appears around a unilateral decision to kill brown skinned people that agree to live and reproduce in the most efficient manner for the single purpose of feeding that slaughtering machine and producing goods and resources for the machine and for the now sanctioned debauchery that the new religion has prescribed all of our species to perform
Which as you might imagine is more than a little stretch
The gpus will still be used for AI, just not as profitable
Hard to do that when there’s no profit NOW.
Is that because they’re so focussed on growth and advancement though?
Right now there’s no incentive for efficiency. The focus is using venture capital to grab market share by implementing new products.
If suddenly everyone realised that the new iterations are more costly without any new functionality, the focus would switch and it might be worthwhile.
Right now, you can buy a $500 GPU, and run an LLM locally that can help you draft documents or code or transcribe audio. If that were scaled up to a subscription service surely it could be reasonably priced, yet profitable.
If all of that were the case… why aren’t they ALREADY profitable? There are only 2 companies in the actual LLM/AI space, OpenAI and Anthropic, and OpenAI is already so dominant that Anthropic is a noncontender. Since that is the case, why aren’t either of them profitable? If they were, they’d be screaming about it constantly; Altman would be on stage every single goddamn day boasting about it; OpenAI would be posting monthly, if not WEEKLY profit reports, just to show how much money they were making as “”“The Future™️”“”; public investors would be POURING IN like nothing else mattered!!!
So where is it? Where’s the profit? Where are the reports and press conferences, the investor statements and the IPO’s? Where’s the goddamn money, Lebowski???
And don’t say they’re in the “growth stage” or whatever. 4 years in and a TRILLION DOLLARS LATER, there’s no profit to be seen, no remarkable products to use, nothing of substance except billions burned building bespoke data centers and polluting the planet. The whole AI “”“industry”“” is a lie.
I could nitpick many inaccuracies in what you just said, but the main message that they are not profitable is on point.
Because they are still chasing a breakthrough. It’s one thing offering LLMs as a service or selling models, it’s another to develop new and better ones. It’s just a huge research cost. I’m pretty sure if they would stop research on new models and slightly increase their prices, they would be profitable. But they don’t want to fall behind.
They’re in a growth stage.
I don’t agree with them, but venture capitalists believe they are inventing a god, and that the first to achieve it will enjoy never before seen power, control, and ultimately wealth.
A bunch of brain dead junior Devs who cannot think for themselves
next year’s salary research is going to be a lot of fun!
There are many fine uses for tensor cores, we will not stop processing data.
There sure are but will there ever be a real chance to attract sober investors to make it work as a real business and not growth hacking extravaganza any time soon?
Sober investors, what do these have as a choice? As if there are “safer” alternatives like raw materials? Are these investors in the room with us now? The stock market is disconnected from the real world and when a bubble pops it has exactly nothing to do with roi or income or success of anything underlying the labels on these casino icons. It has to do with hedge fund algorithms. And those are set to full burn because there will never be a bad day (it’s delusional)
Used GPUs
Annoyingly the current Gen that’s used for ai is basically useless for gaming
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AI is where former cryptocurrency companies pivoted when mining cryptocurrency stopped being profitable. There’s nothing left to pivot back to. Even those who have drunk the blockchain Koolaid don’t think there’s money in mining. Just gambling by investing with real money and hoping someone will give you more real money than you bought it with.
Lol. I’m sure some new fangled NFT AI Slop wouldn’t be another bubble.
bubbles are only bad if you don’t leave before they pop
I didn’t realize what is good or bad is reducible to what I alone experience and everyone else can fuck off.
don’t invest in the bubble and it won’t hurt you, don’t expect speculative investors either
yes, We can’t prevent the bubble burst. We can hope it happens sooner rather than later but the bubble is baked in. So what companies and individuals can to is basically buy up their detritus at bargain prices. And then use them to make better, more solid companies that do not require $3T investment while showing no fucking profit.
it’s kinda funny how all these massive business are all giant money drains year after year after year. back in the day business people used to pride themselves being in the black.
Anyone more knowledgeable care to help me understand where Anthropic is on this graphic/clusterjam?
The housing bubble encompassed a metric ton of banks and companies that bought and sold shares of subprime mortgages in the billions of dollars and when everyone stopped paying and started defaulting, that caused a entire economic collapse.
Now unless someone can point me to an analysis where we have some tangible proof that banks and tons of companies are invested, not just using, AI, it seems to me the fall out would be limited to tech companies, which yeah would involve some job losses but nothing on the scale of the housing or dotcom bubble.
Now if you’re referring to rich jackasses who are all in and banking on AI taking our jerbs? Sure that bubble will hurt them but they’re not driving forces in the economy, just politics, which I guess could cause a economic crash if they get your idiot politicians more scared of them than the people with France on their minds.
True, but consider that a huge amount of retail investors’ portfolios are tied to the S&P 500/NASDAQ. Think retirement savings, IRAs, 401(k)s, pensions, etc. Then consider that the entire market is effectively propped up by AI right now (see: The entire stock market is being carried by these four AI stocks). If the market gets a 60% correction, it’s going to be the middle class losing their shirts all over again.
doesn’t look a goddamn thing like the housing bubble
I suppose similar in the sense that the housing bubble involved a bunch of rich idiots speculating on bad debt that had been vaguely washed to make it look good and now we have a bunch of rich idiots speculating on AI based on vague promises that it’ll be good.
but the circles
Can confirm, circles look like bubbles.
Got em
More like the .com bubble but much worse.
Look at all those not market related bubbles
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They do look like bubbles.
Unpopular opinion but this will not as bad as housing bubble and we’re way past bubbles actually popping in contemporary economy. Even China corrected for its massive ghost city housing bubble just recently and that was actually worse than ai tech overvaluation.
Can you explain how we’re beyond bubbles like I’m 5? Is it that there are gentler market corrections now?
Yes, contemporary economy and free markets are so imaginary now that cascading effects and bubble pops like 2008 are very unlikely. American stock market in particular is so far off reality (even before AI boom) that it’s basically a video game with no actual relevancy to true gross product. While China/Russia is a dictatorship with no representation of reality at all and can easily hide the burden of bad economic policies in the obedient peasant class.
So we have dictatorship with imaginary worlds vs “free markets” living in their own imaginary simulation. Economy is all made up now and cascades are basically impossible because that requires rationality.
The problem isn’t the imaginary market, which I agree with the description. Its the leveraging of debt, to gamble in the market, which is what low interest rates enable.
And yes, our interest rates are VERY low still. I’m looking at some ARM packages right now, and their max lifetime interest rates are on par with what a typical mortgage was about a decade ago.
Perfect explanation, also; since 07 thing where the hedge bros were not punished, there stopped existing any incentive to imagine any scenario where anyone lose any money due to bank runs
Idk if ghost city thing was a bubble tho.
China used planned infrastructure and bunch of confused journalists in US were like “what kind of government plans for housing of their citizens”
Ah yes “the stoopit west har har” propaganda lol
I was mostly going for “modern journalism is is sad and biased towards clickbait” ngl. Especially now they have AI edited articles.
It was a textbook bubble. They made and gambled on theoretical apartments where nobody involved had any intention of living there or any responsibility or connection to the underlying structure, to the point where building cardboard skyskrapers became a business… the is no point in denying it. Capital housing investment is a plague on humanity.
There are always bad actors in the system (see: hedge funds). But bubble? It can be argued that Ordos (the ghost city) was build too early, but it’s filling in nicely. From 30k in 2009 to 2.000.000+ in 2020.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordos_City
On the other hand noone ever build a damn whole modern city before for the people, so I’m not surprised they jumped the gun.
When Investors own houses only because it will appreciate in value from time only, that is a fundamentally flawed system because in reality houses decrease in value as they get older. It creates an environment where everyone involved is a bad actor
I’m sorry, I’m a little bit lost. I do agree that investment in owning rentals should be forbidden (and if city needs rental units they should be owned by the city).
I do not agree that “ghost cities” were built for speculative purposes. Speculants were buying them like crazy, yes, but the actual need for housing in regions planned (expected?) to undergo urbanization is real and the buildings were fulfilling that purpose.
Let me guess… is it because the people’s republic is flawless in every concievable way? I saw some footage from someone that was there, not a news agency. I won’t pretend that couldn’t be wrong, but I am known to occasionally enjoy Occam’s razor.
Yeah, my server end with ml so I must be a tankie, makes sense.
It cannot be that I genuinely appreciate long term vision policies. I must be a tankie. And you’re right, those cities were not needed, and planned urbanization must be planned only 2 years ahead because everything else is speculative bubble made for speculation.
I mean even if it was planned the amount of excess given falling birthrates, doesn’t check out either.
I’ve been saying the same thing.
The 2008 housing bubble was predicated on cheap lending. It was all debt. It was massive amounts of toxic debt sold around Wall Street, like using Trump Coin or counterfeit cash used to buy a house.
The vast majority of what’s happening here is not debt. Sure, some, but very little. Even the OpenAI AMD stock swap thing is swapping a gamble on stocks worth real money, not debt.
IMO the first sub-bubble to pop will be all the time and effort wasted on “Startups” that are nothing more than a couple people acting as a wrapper for an AI agent. That’s not really going to impact the economy too much on its face, but suddenly a lot of people are going to go from being “entrepreneurs” to being truly unemployed.
Edit: Also, just saw this gem, and THIS is how you get a supercharged 2008 repeat, bank deregulation and $2.6 trillion in lending. Which is exactly how we got to 2008’s subprime lending.
The vast majority of what’s happening here is not debt.
Most of what is going on in the AI sector is most certainly debt leveraged. Like, I’m looking at the books for several companies deep into AI.
I mean, how much profit is OpenAI turning right now?
I’m looking at the books for several companies
Well with all that proprietary information, please do enlighten us with specifics. Who has loans, and how much? From which banks?
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Comparing to the dotcom bubble is what finally made it make sense in my brain. Though I know the toll it took on that sector’s workers and I don’t envy those in fields that are going to be affected the same way.
