- cross-posted to:
- batteries@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- batteries@sh.itjust.works
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TWICE AS MUCH COMPARED TO WHAT???
My left ball?
To answer your question we’ll need to conduct a series of electrical tests on your left ball. Please report to the lab as soon as possible, and wear loose pants.
Oooh, kinky.
You really need a statistical baseline on a population of left nuts.
Should set up a PPV website to offset costs of the study.
Going to need a control ball relative to the variable ball to calibrate your measurements.
Uh, can we do this experiment on someone else’s balls? Asking for a friend.
Of course. It is specifically froh42’s left balls that we will be experimenting on.
froh42 has the standard left ball. Once we get an accurate measurement we’ll be able to compare other balls to it and go from there.
Compared to a non-hydrous sodium vanadium oxide system.
Yep, I’m just annoyed by lazy headlines.
YOU WON’T BELIEVE
Actor Joins Film“They said I wouldn’t believe it.”
When the author gives the reader too much credit lol
No
Sodium Ion is a real game changer. But I doubt it will compete with Lithium Ion on energy density anytime soon.
But that’s not necessary to make major changes in the power grid. Solar and wind is already cheapest form of energy generation even considering the expense of Lithium to store the energy when renewables aren’t generating. If you’re just installing stationary battery banks, you don’t care that much about the energy density as you would for a battery in a car or phone. Set up banks of cheap sodium ion batteries strategically and not only do you have plenty of power stored for when it’s not sunny or windy, you may avoid widespread power outages when power lines are downed.
Sodium ion has the same “energy density”, but lower density because of its honeycomb structure.
This story is actually about a sodium-vanadium wet battery, not sodium ion. NaVn batteries are a wet flow battery that have been around for a while, they are intended for stationary power use.
That face is glorious. My mood has skyrocketed.
We are close to finding out why some liquids are blue.
The Institute of Sciencey Things
The Gargamel Research Institute
You can throw any battery in the ocean. The better question is should you?
Who else is going to feed the eels?
Every week with the “miracle battery!” headlines. This has been going on for ages and I’m sick of it.
Sodium-ion batteries are not hype though, they are in production use in multiple industries already. They are generally superior to Lithium based batteries in all regards, with the exception of having a bit lower energy density. An equivalent LiFePO4 battery might be 70-80% of the size for the same storage. It’s not a big deal for large applications like cars and solar storage.
Yeah, the advantages of all these sodium batteries, in my mind, is that they are stable and rugged enough to build up a backbone of a energy storage system for a grid. I’m seriously thinking about them for my house, in the UK.
Yes, I am very intrigued. For something the size of half a shipping container I could power my house for almost a month. This is of course fantasy because I don’t have $20,000 to throw down. But combine it with solar cells that have gotten really cheap and you could indefinitely power your house for next to nothing.
Also not nearly as much of a fire hazard.
Cool.
If they have a bit lower energy density than Lithium batteries, then where does the claim that they store twice the energy come from?
Twice the energy than the previous sodium battery tech. Nowhere does it say its twice as good as Li-ion. That’s an assumption you made.
Sounds like it came from that article about the new kind of sodium batteries with vanadium that are doing that desalination business. I was describing the general technology rather than that specific new one in the article.
Right up there with “cause/cure for dementia found”
“Dyslexia for cure found!”
350 page study concludes some people spend too much time reading.
We found the cure for Alzheimer’s but can’t remember what it was. I think it began with a “c”. Who are you?
Tuesday.
cure for dementia found"
The US government could use some of that these days.
Charged with fusion power! From space! Made from privately mined asteroids!
And it’s got electrolytes!
Sodium Ion already does 5000+ cycles. Adding Vanadium is not a scalable material. It is very expensive. 400 cycles steady is not useful information because it needs to do much more. They didn’t state a wh/kg density. This is probably not a viable research vector, but “big Vanadium” has proposed a rental model to make Vanadium more scarce for other applications. Flow batteries (a fuel cell with tanks of electrolytes) provides an ultra easy way of recycling/selling the vanadium for traditional uses. Battery rental that forces returning it could be viable.
Right up there with the batteries that would contain about 1 kg of silver in them. Even if they didn’t become insanely expensive you’d have tweakers foaming at the mouth to steal your batteries.
Sodium ion batteries have less energy density as opposed to Lithium ion (100-150 WH per Kg instead of 150-250). I’m curious how much these “wet” batteries improve that. The article doesn’t say.
Nonetheless, even if it’s not the new battery for your car, it could be useful as energy storage for the grid, storing green (solar) energy for the night, and desalinating seawater at the same time.
We hear about a new battery chemistry like every week. Do most never get to commercialization?
They mostly these articles are showing new avenues for research. Most are deadends usually due to issues with production/scalability.
Sodium Ions batteries are coming to market, however the issue is that Lithium Ion are just improving faster and making it harder for Sodium Ion batteries to compete.
Unless other situations where the established technology wins due to inertia, sodium ion batteries have two benefits that make them interesting regardless:
Firstly, they are safer. A punctured sodium ion battery doesn’t catch fire, which massively simplifies safety design. That makes them very attractive for certain scenarios, especially ones where density is a secondary concern. That in turn means they get further development money instead of withering on the vine.
Secondly, they require fewer hard-to-obtain materials, which makes them attractive from a strategic perspective. This one should be less important than the safety factor but it’s also relevant.
I’m pretty sure we’ll actually see wet sodium cells in the wild if they are actually practical. Sodium ion tech is already being commercialized and if this brings it within the same ballpark as lithium ion then it becomes a very interesting choice for vehicles due to instant crash safety gains.
They also perform better in the cold making them a better choice for EVs in cold regions. This is why I think CATL saw the videos of cars getting killed by cold and pulled the trigger on retooling even with the lithium price crash.
My very uneducated understanding is that sodium batteries can be produced virtually anywhere.
Not every battery application needs to maximize energy density, so sodium batteries are good where that is the case.
I also did not read about sodium ion batteries characteristics versus lithium ion, so there might also be other use cases where sodium ion batteries are better.
No thermal runaway if I remember correct as those are not prone to exploding (unlike li-ion/li-po)
And instead of charging them, you can drink them! Unlike Lithium Ion batteries, which you have to chew.
But can you drink them after they were charged?
And how does that affect the taste?
My dream is to taste lightning.
My dream is to taste lightning.
Should have checked out Benjamin Franklin’s dinner parties when you had a chance.
Desalinating water might be the best part. Usually, solar power has the downside of needing storage and desalination has the downside of big energy requirements. If you can do both at the same time, it’s a big win for dry climates with lots of sun
They are not going to get the sodium from desalination, they will mine it because it’s cheaper.
and more pure
Exactly, the desalination gimmick is bullshit for STEM ignorant hippies.
Countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE depend on it
Desalination sodium is free if you want the water
I can’t imagine it’s doing this at a rate that will make a big impact on water supply, I suspect this is one of those things they throw in just to have a good headline.
Water supply where? In Saudi Arabia it could be revolutionary tech when combined with solar
Not, for example, if it’s only producing 1l/day.
But you can’t imagine it doing a lot more?
I don’t think batteries will soak up that much salt for their use. And I’d imagine they saturate over time. It’s very different than something built specifically for deslination.
Each battery won’t, but a factory making lots of batteries…
Maybe. If it was a compelling case I’d think they’d show us the data.
There is also the issue with the salt by itself in desalinisation. If it’s removed with water, you have to deal with that stuff. Table salt is really cheap and there is plenty of offer, so you can’t really economically clean it enough and package it for human consumption or industrial use. So what usually happens is that they dump it back at one moment or another. And that is a hard pollution, and can lead to dead zones around the desalinisation plants if not managed well enough. Being able to add it in a high demand product such as batteries takes all those hurdles away
Make it into bricks and build a pyramid somewhere really dry?
I can only hope these can actually hit commercialization, unlike most new battery technologies that never leave the lab.
Yes, because battery technology stagnated years ago…
Oh wait
Great response, people just love to parrot easy dismissals without looking and the sheer magnitude on innovation and commercialisation going on in this sector
It doesn’t really dispute it, though. Lithium-ion has seen a lot of improvement, yes, because it’s already a giant industry; other battery chemistries have a hard time breaking through because they require entirely different processes to manufacture.
I’m still rooting for it, but it’s not really the same thing.This too is false, great progress has been made on for instance solid state batteries.
You can’t buy anything with solid state batteries yet, and when you can, they will cost a fortune.
Uhh you know you can buy an external mag safe battery bank with a solid state battery for like 45 bucks on amazon as well as the big generator ones as well?
I agree that cost isn’t amazing. You are essentially getting about half the capacity per dollar spent to a standard battery device but also these are in fact more stable for temp swings and damage. Soo… consumer available and not a fortune just need to have justification for it.
Wow! Thanks for sharing that data. I had no idea.
Weird, I didn’t know Lithium-Ion batteries were still in the lab. I thought for sure we were using those already. I thought the batteries in the labs were various solid-state batteries like graphene or like this sodium-ion battery, where there’s been a rise in patents around it but not a lot delivered
There are a bunch of lithium ion chemistries that have come to market more recently.
LFP sits in the low cost marker while NCA is the highest performing of the mass market batteries, and NMC is somewhere in between.
Sodium might be coming for LFP’s low cost position, and is already beginning mass production (some Chinese manufacturers expect those models to hit the road in a few months).
If you think rechargeable battery R&D from 10 years ago isn’t making it into mass produced products today, you’re just not paying attention.
There are a bunch of lithium ion chemistries that have come to market more recently
Like what? [Citation required]
If you think rechargeable battery R&D from 10 years ago isn’t making it into mass produced products today, you’re just not paying attention.
Please provide examples.
I mean, as much as a person who doesn’t work in research and development of energy storage, or work in industries directly related to it, I personally feel I’ve kept up. The day Donut Labs announced their battery I was watching review videos about it, and I want to believe, but until I see it for purchase, I’m not going to call it a win.
Like what?
Wasn’t LFP commercialized at EV scale like a decade ago? It went from like 0% market share to majority market share in about a decade.
TBF, there are a lot of “battery breakthroughs” that turn out to just be hot air. Battery technology has made tremendous progress though and there is still a lot of room for improvement.
hot air.
No, that’s a different type of battery.
No, this is Patrick.
Patrick who?
What do they do with the Chlorine though?
They run a pool service
🤨 Is this a reference to what I think it’s a reference to?
Clean chickens.
TNT has 1162 Wh/kg ratio.
These new lithium-ion batteries get to 300-400Wh/kg range.
We are hitting the limit what is doable with energy density. Do you really want to carry 100g of TNT in your pocket or few tons of TNT in vehicle going 100km/h.
Of course things are not directly comparable, but ball parks.
TNT has 1162 Wh/kg ratio.
How do you recharge TNT?
We are hitting the limit what is doable with energy density.
I mean, we’re definitely running into a problem of how you build a battery without also building a bomb. But the entire point of TNT is rapid thermal expansion. The point of a battery is very low voltage steady release of electrical charge.
I might also note that C4 has around 6 Mwh/kg. A bit of applied chemistry can go a long way to improving energy efficiency. And that’s before you take advantage of geometry to focus pressure, via a shaped charge.
Point being, there’s a lot of clever ways to juice a lemon. We’re a long way from the end of the road on battery improvement.
i’d say stability is more important than energy density
like gasoline has more than 10x the energy density than tnt and we’re perfectly fine with many kg of that on a vehicle going 100km/h
a fully fueled vehicle is the equivalent of ~600kg of TNT, but it’s very stable whilst TNT is not
That is true, but my small EV the batteries are 500kg, same car with combustion engine only has 40L fuel tank.
Stability is important, but lithium-ion ain’t really that stable either. Still waiting some solid state to get made.
Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFe-PO) are actually really stable. Way less likely to catch fire in thermal runaway and don’t lose capacity as easily.
They just aren’t very energy dense, so you need more weight per wh. They also operate at a lower voltage per cell which means they charge slower.
They are used in short to med range EVs already, but the lower capacity makes it impractical to put enough for longer range EVs.
As an aside, I would argue that for the majority of people a large capacity EV battery is a bit of a waste. Mine is ~70Kwh, give or take. In optimal conditions my car estimates 240-250mi at 100%. Over the winter it’s showing anywhere from 140-180mi at 80%.
I moved cross country right after getting it and drove it 1000 miles. It took a bit longer, than it would in a gas car, but it was doable. Just have to plan segments to get to the next charger and try to charge to 100% with level 2 charging (240v AC) if you can when you stop for the night.
Yeah, lithium ion is a good stopgap while we develop better options, but it’s by no means stable. Get them too hot or puncture a cell and you’re going to have a bad time.
Yeah but firewood is like 5 kwh/kg, or 4 times the energy density of TNT. We drive around with wood in our cars all the time.
Doesnt matter if the capacity is even less than sodium batteries.
We’ll see.
What is the catch?
Low capacity is my guess.
Dunno if the article is the same I have read a few days ago but the, mentioned “everything” except the comparable capacity to sodium or lithium batteries.
And I can’t imagine that the capacity for salty water with tofu remnants is much higher than a sodium battery which is atm serialized for mass production runs (isnt it even available in some capacity as a commercial product?)
New tit ion battery generates fifteen times the power and shits butter pecan ice cream. And, like every other battery chemistry there’s ever been a news article for, isn’t real and will never enter production.
I see that sentiment on every battery news, but it sure seems to me like battery tech is advancing quite drastically. Are there over-hyped headlines and articles pumping up tech that isn’t anywhere near completion? Sure, but meanwhile EVs have become a thing, house batteries, etc.
Bullshit headline. It neither desalinates water nor it’s better than Li-ion, because you know physics is pretty hard to cheat
you use grid power, not a miracle
