It’s very frustrating.
What I’ve seen when I bring what’s happening up to family members step one is denial “oh he’s not doing that” step 2 is defend “well it’s probably for the best, kids do yern for the mines”.
Nothing is convincing.
Stages of grief. Most are just getting to denial.
My 90 year old grandma has moved onto bargaining. She’s trying to write a letter to DJT to “warn him about Musk”
Not bad progress, considering I couldn’t get her to budge at all over the past decade.
Stages of grief
Exactly. It doesn’t only apply to grief — any major change of beliefs will need to go through this process… unfortunately.
I remember a moment before the election in 2016. A family member was going off on a Trump worshiping rant. I asked them what they thought of all the awful things that come out of his mouth. They responded with, “Oh, he’s just saying that stuff because he likes to get attention.”
I quoted a passage from Luke’s gospel. “The good person out of the good treasure of the heart produces good, and the evil person out of evil treasure produces evil; for it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks.”
What happened next was amazing. They kind of paused and stared at their shoes with this expression that, if I could put words to it, would have said, “Shit. He’s got me there. How do I get around this one?” They then looked up, physically shrugged it off; like water off a ducks back. That stopped the rant but I knew that If they had to choose between Jesus and this particular version of the anti-christ, their choice was already made and it wasn’t Jesus.
I’ve been there friend. It is not a fun experience but it was very enlightening. Someday they may see it but it is terrifying to understand how willingly ignorant some of us choose to be.
I’ve seen multiple news articles/discussion about pastors being told that the Sermon on the Mount is too “woke.”
It’s been like that since Reagan. Carter was open about his faith and really genuine in it. He made the mistake of interviewing with Playboy and saying he had his own struggles with sin - as any believing Christian would admit.
But somehow Reagan became the evangelicals choice. Christian nationalism has always been the latter wearing the former as a fig leaf. The tenets of Christianity - as evidence by the things that they fight for their “first amendment rights” for - are reduced down to opposition to LGBT+ people, abortion, and ultimately women having any form of independence from their fathers or husbands. They have had nothing to do with Jesus or anything that could be said to be his message for a long time.
When Ollie North started giving tours on the evangelical circuit - that should have been a wake up call.
It doesn’t help that they have literally been programmed by right and far right propaganda that only influences and reinforces that mentality of “unity”.
the media titans know what they’re doing
And Cambridge Analytica
Those are just the easy parts of the equation to blame. The fact is none of it matters as much as wanting to believe what they’re telling you is true. Nobody can fix the hateful parts of those people except themselves. If they don’t then it will express itself in one form or another.
Yes and no. Media gives them all their cues and phrases. Media gives them their weltanschauung.
It’s also defending the cult leader mentality. Breaking with the cult puts you on the outside, and an enemy of the cult. Breaking free of a cult isn’t easy when the cult’s actions are constantly being reinforced and regurgitated by their leader and his media disinformation networks.
I’m a member of a lot of hiking communities on FB. Prior to Trump second presidency, they would blame any kind of problems related to insufficient budgeting to “ sending all money to Ukraine”. Now that he’s the president, and is BLATANTLY cutting budgets to national parks and forests, I see his supporters say “ it’s too bad we donated so much money to the national parks of Ukraine” or “ if Biden did this, you wouldn’t be complaining”, or some version of “ this is necessary, nothing really changed”.
Wild, would assume a hiking community would lean pretty solidly blue and be livid about cuts to national parks. As the last handful of elections have shown though, there are idiots all over the political spectrum.
To be fair, a lot of the do lean blue and are livid. But there are a lot of angry boomers on FB.
I mean, just look at the comment fro the user “Ryan” to a post about a new schedule at the visitor’s center:
If you have trouble opening, I’ll copy and paste.
OP from Sequoia & Kings Canyon National Park:
“NEW VISITOR CENTER HOURS FROM THE Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks official Facebook Account . . .
Schedule update!
The adjusted schedule for visitor centers are as follows:
⛺️ Foothills Visitor Center is open Wednesday – Sunday from 9:30 a.m. to 4 p.m.
🌳 Giant Forest Museum is open Friday – Tuesday from 9:30 a.m. to 4 p.m.
⛰️ Kings Canyon Visitor Center is open Thursday – Sunday from 9:30 a.m. to 4 p.m.”
This one guy responds: “This sure seems like a lot of cuts given the limited number of job losses that I’ve read about. Is this just a political statement? While I wish the federal government would spend more on parks, I’m questioning my substantial donations at this point if efforts aren’t being made to make the best of the situation.”
Nothing is convincing.
“The GOP controls all three branches of government. Whatever the situation looks like next election, whether it’s good or bad, it’s entirely the fault of the GOP.”
Social identity. Hardship together. This is no joke.
I just FaceTimed with a MAGA this week as they industriously cooked a weeks worth of food to freeze. This is an individual who traditionally only defrosts processed crap on baking sheets, despises leftovers, and grocery shops every 1-3 days rather than storing food.
Not this week. Now they’re all about unprocessed foods, cooking to save money, and meal planning in advance. A 180 shift from a week ago. In addition, they’re starting a pantry.
That’s the rough part a lot of Americans need to swallow: MAGA is full of disenfranchised people that would otherwise organize in solidarity for the common good of the working class.
There’s just been so many wedges and fences built up from the Cold War that the ruling class has been able to deflect and distract from progressive policy and maintain power.
Try the Civil War
There is no need to swing Trump voters over.
There are more citizens who did not vote at all who can be engaged with and energized - because these policies are going to fuck them too.
One danger, though: Trump’s campaign managers will try to swing them as well.
I am hopeful! But it will be a fight.
Imagine both parties swinging to third party accidentally 😏 -> 1/4, 2/4, 1/4
Too good to be true, lol
There’s a saying in my country: don’t get drunk on cold water. Meaning don’t gaslight yourself into wishful thinking, because hope can be a hell of a drug.
A third party win won’t happen overnight. The only way you can realistically get it is with ranked choice voting. Otherwise you’re stuck replacing Democrats (and why not, Republicans — in smaller races you can absolutely run a Bernie style progressive who keeps the focus on economics!) one by one because the institutions are already in place, and they’re really powerful! Also, remember they’re just institutions: parties don’t have ideologies, people do.
And before you think to vote for people like Jill Stein or whoever else while hoping that maybe this year the miracle will happen (i.e. getting drunk on cold water), remember that there’s a lot of groundwork that needs to be done by that candidate for them to be viable, and it essentially boils down to this: the whole country needs to know about that person and recognize them on the street come election year — if that’s not the case, then they’re either delusional, underfunded, or most likely an opportunist (possibly even an intentional spoiler paid by the opposition, like RFK was in the Dem primary).
Source: me. I’ve been on the third party hope train back in 2020, emboldened by “leftists” such as Jimmy Dore, BJG, Richard Medhurst, etc.
A third party win won’t happen overnight. The only way you can realistically get it is with ranked choice voting. Otherwise you’re stuck replacing Democrats (and why not, Republicans — in smaller races you can absolutely run a Bernie style progressive who keeps the focus on economics!) one by one because the institutions are already in place, and they’re really powerful! Also, remember they’re just institutions: parties don’t have ideologies, people do.
You’ve basically got three options:
- Reform the party from within (this is how we got MAGA via the Tea Party).
- Replace one of the existing parties with a new one (this has happened a few times over the years, and failed many more).
- Change the underlying system in a way that doesn’t inevitably collapse into a two party system. For example, approval voting. RCV is better than what we have, but it still has serious issues with spoiler effect and strategic voting, they just look a little different than they do under FPTP. STAR and Approval are much better, but STAR is comparatively complicated to explain and report on while Approval is dead simple.
Yep, pretty much — thanks for that! Much clearer than my morning-brained pre-coffee rants, haha.
😇I agree 100%
The cons will swing libertarian and the libs will swing socialist, and then we’ll get a president that only 1/12th of the country actually voted for
We need to pretend to be conservative and be like: “I VOTED TRUMP AND HE DID NOTHING FOR ME, BOTH SIDE ARE THE SAME, I’M VOTING LIBERTARIAN 😡😡😡”
If half of conservatives voted a third party candidate, it would splinter the republican party.
Aka: the Reverse Kremlin stretegy
You’re talking about babies who couldn’t wear a mask during COVID. They have no sense of struggle and no toleration for hardship
They also had their god emperor refusing to wear masks, and political leaders openly denying the disease.
They had support for their grievences.
They won’t get that over the economy. Instead, they’re getting “this is necessary” and “you’ll just have to make some sacrifices for the economy”.
Their God emperor was wearing a mask and taking vaccine shots behind the scenes. He then tells them the opposite.
I even have trouble believing the people that “converted back”. I just think if things change for them and time passes they’ll go back to being Republicans or MAGA.
100%. The people who have turned away from the Republican party have only done so out of a distaste for Trump, and maybe Elon. They are almost certainly not opposed much of what is being done, just how they are going about it, and who is doing it.
Or, they’ve just had their faces eaten by leopards, and are upset that they’re suffering the consequences of their actions.
You don’t get to be a Republican in 2016 or 2024 without being ok with burning the whole system down, with dreams of it being to your own benefit. They just don’t trust the current would-be monarchs to be the ones to actually give them what they believe they’re due.
There’s two kinds of people in this regard:
-
The “I escaped the alt-right pipeline” types, i.e. people realizing there’s a cult and leaving it, and getting to understand more about where they’ve been and how they’ve been manipulated by an entire media ecosystem. They stop hating trans people, abortion, etc., practically changing their whole worldview as if leaving a religion. These I believe are legit because they make an effort to comprehend wtf happened so that it doesn’t happen again, and they likely attempt to pull others out as well.
-
The casual types you described who will dodge a bullet here and there because a candidate rubs them the wrong way but they’re still fundamentally the same: concerned only with incoherent grievance politics, and therefore deeply susceptible to the same manipulation tactics.
-
They’ll just be told that Democrats, immigrants, and trans people are causing the hardship.
“you’ll just have to make some sacrifices for the economy”.
Musk’s new response when asked about hundreds of thousands of starving children directly tied to USAID cuts. It’s a sacrifice he’s willing to happily make.
Doubt, fortunately. The extremists will largely never be turned, but most Trump supporters are moderates who care more about their own well-being than solidarity with the group. Mussolini is a great example of how an idiot dictator can quickly fragment his supporters and end up in the streets
“You can’t reason out of a position you didn’t come to through reason.”
They just hate for hate sake. It’s time to come to terms that the dumb will not be saved by gentle parenting but need to be dragged into reality.
Sure, but most of Trump’s voters did vote for him for a reason: their lives got noticeably harder under Biden. When their lives get even worse under Trump, they’ll vote for another change of party.
The cultists waving Trump flags and buying Trump teddy bears and reading Trump bibles are fueled by identity politics, but the idea that the average Trump voter is one of those cultists is a lie that Trump would very much like you to believe
It’s frightening how many people on “our” side are willing to simply believe that half the country is irredeemably evil by nature and not just taken in by a smooth talking conman after having been abused by the system for decades.
I like your optimism. But yes, I do believe that ~30% of our country is ignorant and racist. They are the perfect target for a smooth talking conman.
Ignorant is not the same as evil. Ignorance can be fixed. It’s easier to just write people off but it doesn’t solve anything unless you’re really eager for another civil war.
History has shown again and again that, when it comes to actions, there is no practical difference between evil by intention and ignorance by stupidity. When people are willfully dismantling the foundations of society, I really don’t give a shit if they are aware of the consequences or not, I am unwilling to forgive them either way.
The difference is that ignorance can be remedied. If they were just evil for evil’s sake then that’s it, might as well give up now.
It’s not the consequences for them I’m worried about, it’s the consequences for all of us if we give in to this dumb “they’re just plain evil and the only way to win is to physically fight them” mentality.
“quickly” only after massive damage is done.
I actually disagree.
There is a tipping point when MAGA followers are forced into situations where they must rely on their neighbour and mutual aid. They’ll be forced out of necessity to interact with people across the aisle who are giving them compassion.
You’re already seeing republicans flipping before that point from the DOGE cuts. Also, the governor of Kentucky is already flipping after their largest purchaser by a long-shot, Canada, took all their booze off the shelves.
I think this overlooks how most MAGAs are rural… and when you live rural you already rely on your neighbors. Most of which are also white and the exceptions are ““one of the good ones.”” It’s why they can demonize entire demographics and still feeling like a good person since they’re good neighbors.
They’re not going to stop blaming ‘the others’ for hardships… They’re just going increase complaints about ‘the government’ and how much they pay in taxes.
I grew up in Amish country/farmland and it’s painful to see how stagnant my family has been over the years.
The question is, will I have reached a breaking point where I will no longer be willing to help them?
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There is a tipping point when MAGA followers are forced into situations where they must rely on their neighbour and mutual aid.
By the time we reach that point, there won’t be an aisle. There won’t be a government.
Andy Beshear isn’t a Republican who flipped, he’s always been a Democrat.
I really hope that this is what’s gonna happen.
MAGA followers are forced into situations where they must rely on their neighbour and mutual aid
That’s the point. Republicans want to get rid of government aid, because they want others to rely on churches or other private charitable organizations - which are able to control and force the normative behavior that conservatives want.
The government can’t say “stop being trans or we’ll cut your section 8 voucher.” But the Salvation Army can say “wear women’s clothes if you don’t want to sleep outside tonight.” Churches can make you sit through their sermon before they feed you.
There’s also the lovely aspect of church finances being a bit more opaque than the governments… sometimes that aid can trickle up…
I doubt it will be noticeable overnight, but at least some of his supporters will be pushed into a degree of impoverishment that inhibits political engagement.
They aren’t engaged now. Anyone who really looks at politics beyond the talking points that are delivered by the right knows how insane the right is.
Lack of citizen engagement makes it easier to blame immigrants and trans women.
OK, I have read some evidence that shows how when a level of impoverishment is reached, people are too preoccupied with day to day and week to week survival to bother with voting or much of any other civil engagement.
I won’t waste more time on this, I’m not interested in arguing over the definition of ‘disengaged’.
Isnt that what most of his voter base already is?
The fact that they voted means they are not disengaged.
Yours might have just been an offhand comment, but as it might be a genuine question I provided a brief answer.
It was kind of both. I see what you mean now though
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Even more so if it hurts the ones they hate even more. If they lose their job but see five children deported, they probably see it as a win.
And they can also continue to blame Biden.
Yes, this is all they will do.
Shun them. Trump supporters are evil, try and avoid working for them or with them in any way. Don’t talk to them. There is no need to be friendly. These people are actually supporting a Nazi revival.
That’s what I’m saying but my wife says I still gotta go to her dad’s house with her.
I really, really, have no interest in talking to that man. She shouldn’t either. He was a shit human before Trump was president and he’ll be a shit human long after. Half his kids (none of her full siblings, just her half- and step- siblings…her moms side is like some of the best people I’ve met and my MIL is probably the nicest lady in the world) are equally shitty, as are half his grandkids.
I mean hell, she gave up Target because of DEI, and she visits Target far more often.
Aitah?
Seriously? Put on your big boy pants and say no.
One thing that worked with my partner was asking them if they had a racist or a mean relative and asking them how they felt spending time around them when they were kids.
We haven’t talked to his parents since November and he says he ain’t missing them at all.
Toxic-ass motherfuckers.
Great Trump will be celebrating our withdrawal from our neighbors all day. The best thing that can happen to him is for us to keep yelling “you’re evil” at half the country. It just reinforces his position with every cry of hate.
Are there some actual ideological Nazis following Trump? Of course. But the vast majority is just sick and tired of the status quo that does nothing for them. And as a result they got taken in by a huckster politician.
You write of half the country a just basically evil by nature and you’re playing his game for him.
I hear you, but there are a few things you have to understand; MAGA is not 50% of the population.
Of registered voters, only 47% have a declared a party affiliation. So immediately 1/2 of the USA’s voting population cannot be considered Republican or Democrat.
If party registered voters, you are correct in that it is a 49% (D) and 48% ® split. That puts Republicans at almost a perfect 25% of the population.
Not all Republicans are MAGA (arguable), with various polling putting 52% of Registered Republicans as MAGA supporters.
Why? Some vote Republican because they don’t like Democrats, or don’t want a woman president (Trump has only won against women, Biden beat him by a landslide).
Summary: It’s almost a perfect 50% by 50% by 50% divide! MAGA is about 12-15% of the population.
All MAGA has to do is radicalize key voting areas to win the electoral college, but these crazies are fickle and vanish quickly. Remember the Tea Party movement? … yea, me neither really.
Biden is also a tool of neoliberalism and class warfare. The fact that we sit here understanding that Trump voters will “endure suffering” for fascism should tell us something. It is because a vast majority of people in this country are fed up with neoliberalism that has existed since Reagan.
One side of the country has moved to the left and found actual answers that explain the alienation that they feel and the reason for their frustration. That reason is class conflict and worker exploitation. (This is sadly a small amount of people)
Another side of the country has been fooled by fascism and xenophobia. These are the Trump supporters.
And then we have the “middle” that is a minority in this country that is continue to defend neoliberalism. This is the democratic party and it’s loyal “vote Blue no matter who” block. These are often the people comfortable enough still to not feel frustration, that do not actually feel the economic impact.
Sadly that minority that is still holding strong to neoliberalism and the status quo is heavily preventing the country from learning actual leftist ideals.
No one wants the status quo and neoliberalism. So the average American is leaning right for “something else” because the Democratic party is offering them nothing but the status quo and weak policies.
The Democrats inability to evolve to a leftist populist message, under Sanders, is a very important part of understanding why people voted for Trump twice. They gave the Democrats one last chance under Biden and felt no material improvement to their lives.
It’s why they will blame Biden and hold onto this “change” in Trump. They will gladly suffer under something different than to suffer slightly less under the same system that has caused their struggles and alienation.
Unfortunately for us the only party that is somewhat normal is the dems and like you said they’re stooges for the capitalist class. I see no way out of this. I believe the dems are controlled opposition at this point. They would rather defend the status quo than fight for economic mobility. Bernie was right the whole time. While the republicans were cleaning house for MAGA, dems were eliminating all internal opposition. We need to do the same here on the left if the Democratic Party is to be saved.
People are way too focused on change at the federal level. You need to start small and local, building groups that can create the grassroots support actual leaders will need to get elected.
Start with your cities and counties and work your way up.
If only they agreed that Social Security, Universal Healthcare and just being nice to each other is better for everyone.
If we try to increase the quality of life for everyone, we’ll have a better world.
Some people can’t be happy unless they’re constantly angry about the people they were told to hate.
We call them gammons over here.
Y’all learned nothing from the election if you’re still trying to turn them.
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If we had taxpayer universal healthcare, that’d be easy. Just give them all semaglutide. Problem solved.
I just encountered this last night with hardcore Trumper family members. They believe his tariffs are because the tariffed countries have their military subsidized by the American government and they need to pay their fair share. They think xwe’re going to have to “feel a little pain” for a year or two, then “it” will be better. What is “it”? Who the hell knows. They certainly don’t.
My dad isn’t a Trump supporter but he sure sounds like one. He’s fine with tariffs because “we won’t be paying them”. The underlying belief is that we shouldn’t import electricity or other goods, we should be producing our own, we should be self sustaining. And these tariffs are speeding up factories to open up in the states and produce US goods. The adjustment period (a few years at most) will be hard but worth it in the end - everything will be US made. Wohoo?
Never mind that our current infrastructure is crumbling and nothing is being done about it. And Trump is siphoning off any resources the us has. Never mind that many people today live paycheck to paycheck and as a result of this self imposed trade war will starve or freeze to death in the interim. Never mind that even if the US government decided to invest in this, it would take many many many decades to make US self sustaining, and once achieved prices will be higher than if we were to import the goods.
And where did they stand on feeling a little pain when egg prices went up during the campaign?
That was Biden’s incompetence! The mental gymnastics astound.
Not every Trump voter is a die hard MAGA, a large amount just don’t pay attention and vote republican out of habit because the media has told them for decades that Republicans are better for the economy or just because that is the party their parents voted for.
Knew 2 guys that just hated Trans ppl more than anything
That’s the base, right there. Frothing hated of “others.” There’s a core of Americans that are just shit, and they’ve been smearing it everywhere they touch since Nixon. Or that fucking cocksucker Woodrow Wilson.
I know people like that too, and I know a lot more who aren’t like that. On average, 24% of the people I meet voted Trump, and I know exactly three people who wear the hats and complain about the transes. The vast majority of people who voted for him feel the same about him as Harris voters felt about her.
Struggle is a key part of propaganda and cult of personality, all for the “better good”. And if they already are this far, they will keep going
They are trash people who are lost causes
