So if as an American, you were to lose your documentation, unless you are lily white, you can be contained by ICE.
Be scared.
I see withholding licenses and registrations as a tactic pigs are going to use in the future.
No not your documentation. Your parent’s documentation
Yeah, but also for most things requiring proof of citizenship in the US, people generally use their birth certificate or a document, like a passport or real ID, that was originally obtained with a birth certificate. If birthright citizenship is no longer a thing, how would you even provide documentation for your parents’ citizenship if they aren’t naturalized citizens? Can’t rely on their birth certificates because that no longer matters and now I have to prove my grandparents were/are citizens to prove my parents are citizens and on and on. It doesn’t even make sense.
It makes complete sense when you understand that the goal isn’t to deport “illegal immigrants” (whatever that’s supposed to mean), but anyone they want (and that “deport” effectively means disappear).
Your only defence is to be a member (in good standing) of their group (and only as long as you remain in good standing).
Otherwise you’re fair game.
And there’s nothing you can legally do about it (except leave the country before they get to you, but then you risk getting caught as you cross the border to leave), because it’s intentionally impossible for you to follow the law.
“illegal immigrants” (whatever that’s supposed to mean)
Attempting to violate constitutional law through executive order is vile, and all law enforcement should be in uniform and identifiable (and held to higher standards than non-law enforcement) so I am completely against everything Trump is doing, but let’s not pretend illegal immigration isn’t a thing as a knee jerk in the other direction.
Illegal immigration is crossing the border without legally passing through customs to establish a legal right to be in that country, or overstaying your legal right to be there (Visa). People who are in a country illegally are rightfully subject to deportation back to wherever they are citizens. Pretending otherwise just helps more moderate people buy into the propaganda and let’s the ratchet work more easily.
We are all rightly complaining about Trump violating the law, so how is it also not a problem for people to violate immigration law? This is the problem I have that leaves me stuck in the middle.
Sanctuary cities that flaunt immigration law are, while not just as bad, still bad. When Trump (lies) and says he only wants to target people here illegally who commit crimes, and a sanctuary city prevents law enforcement cooperation with ICE, that just adds to the narrative of felon illegal immigrants and then you have ICE going after those people at home and grabbing everyone around them as by catch. This only helps the Trump.
how is it also not a problem for people to violate immigration law
Because they don’t give a flying fuck about whether the people they’re disappearing have violated any laws or not.
They’ve disappeared citizens, they’ve disappeared people following the legal process to immigrate, without letting them finish, they’ve disappeared tourists who didn’t even have any intention to immigrate.
They’re fascists. They don’t care about the law. It’s just an excuse to do what they want. Marketing to attract gullible racist idiots to their cause.
But, even if that wasn’t enough, even if you don’t care about their real motives, even if you don’t care whether the law is good or not or how it’s applied, as I said in my previous answer they’re designing their new laws in such a way that it’s impossible for anyone not to violate them.
Even if you were to always carry your parents’ and grandparents’ birth certificates on you, what about your great grandparents?
Everyone in the USA is an immigrant or a descendant of immigrants! (Sure, some got there long enough ago that they were probably the first to arrive and can therefore be called natives, but they’re the wrong colour, so they don’t matter and will be disappeared anyway.)
Ironically, the only people who’ll be able to prove they’re in the country legally (not that it matters, since, as I said, the fascists don’t care) will be those with a green card, properly stamped foreign passport, or similar documents.
Making laws impossible to follow and then applying them arbitrarily to achieve their own goals and not the laws’ has been standard fascist fare since fascism was invented (and, before that, standard autocratic authoritarian fare).
Watching fascists do their thing and pointing at the law and saying that their victims deserved it or should have known better is disingenuous at best, almost certainly malicious, and definitely monstrous.
And I’ll finish with this:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips.
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!Now, I’m not an American, I don’t care about American nationalism or pride, but this is what America, the USA, was supposed to be, what it was supposed to mean. A nation of immigrants, welcoming liberty seeking refugees to her shores. A beacon of freedom and democracy to which everyone could aspire.
Of course, it never really was that. But it was a nice thought.
Something is clear, though; anyone justifying the current government’s actions in the name of defending America, or American ideals or culture is either extremely ignorant or an hypocrite. And they’re most definitely un-American.
And I’ll finish with this
Ah, no, wait, sorry, there’s also this:
This is the problem I have that leaves me stuck in the middle.
There’s no middle ground with fascists.
You’re either actively against them, or you’re part of the problem.
Maybe you’re one of them, or just a useful hateful racist idiot aiding and abetting them while you wait for your turn to be disappeared for not being fascist enough, but if you’re not fighting against them you’re contributing to their crimes against humanity.
And if you’re just a useful idiot, bear this in mind:
You won’t appease them. They won’t stop. They won’t thank you. They won’t hesitate to treat you like any other undesirable (including many who believed themselves to be part of their group). You’ll end up like any other “illegal immigrant” when your turn comes.
And if they’re not stopped, rest assured, it will come.
You’re either actively against them, or you’re part of the problem.
I’ll take this whole section generously as a nebulous “you” and not you directly calling me either “one of them or a useful hateful racist”.
Two things can both be wrong, it’s not a zero sum game between open borders and fascist police states. Treating it as such caused the Democrats to lose some amount of support base, and did contribute to Trump getting reelected. The increase in Trump support from Hispanics and other immigrant groups was partially from resentment with treating illegal immigration as equivalent to legal immigration.
Yes, the poem on the Statue of Liberty is wonderful, and should still apply as the US is and should remain a nation of immigrants. That is not the same as having open borders for anyone and everyone, and it never has been.
Two things can both be wrong
When one of those two things is fascism, the other one is irrelevant.
The difference in magnitude between how wrong one objectively is and the other might be is so cosmically vast, that any comparison is moot.
You either stop fascism, by any means necessary, or you (and everyone else) suffers the consequences.
Again, there is no possible middle ground.
There is no possible “yes, but…”.
There are no other priorities.
There’s no possible bargaining, rationalisation, justification, or argument.
Any attempt at such is either irrational or malicious, or most probably both.
When faced with an existential threat, you either do everything in your power to stop it, or you suffer its consequences, and allow everyone else to suffer them.
If you are not actively opposing fascism, you are enabling it.
You are a necessary accomplice and collaborator.
You are effectively indistinguishable from any other fascist, and equally responsible for any harm they cause.
Accept your responsibility and, if you don’t like it, stop trying to justify yourself and start doing something about it.
Thank you for so clearly explaining how an autocrat works. Dictators use the premise and facade of laws for legitimacy but never actually care to follow them. The Donvict loves autocrats like Putin and Kim. The fact that donOLD’s grandfather was an immigrant is irrelevant because he’s the king, er, prez or whatever, and decides that the rules are for other people and not him.
To be honest, they are likely to use this against everyone they consider an enemy. Didn’t vote for Trump? Well, you’re not a citizen anymore. Get in the van.
No, ICE can still detain you if you’re lily white. Race is only an excuse to get started; they will deport dissidents with this eventually.
The immigration courts happen to be directly ran by the executive branch. They’re firing any judge who isn’t onboard.
They deported a white guy from Norway. They have no issues deporting anybody, trust me.
“Got a quota to meet! Who can we deport today?”
If he so much as touches mine he will regret it for the rest of his short life
Go lil plumber go!
Draino dissolves more than pipe clogs y’know
It’s totally alright as long he touches others citizenship’s tho… /s
Under these rules, Trump himself isn’t a citizen
And his, ahem, ‘wife’ is definitely not.
Here’s another thing to think about… This is another distraction because the obese tangerine is on the Epsteins kiddie fiddling list. He’s a convicted rapist and rapes children.
Hitler didn’t have blonde hair either
Back to Oompa Loompa Land he goes.
Can you explain that please? I just read the document and I don’t see why this is true.
His mother was an immigrant with questionable citizenship at the time of his birth.
And his father? Because it also says clearly that as long as one parent is a green card holder or citizen that citizen ship is granted.
His father is questionable as well since he had immigrant parents on both sides.
Thank you 🙏🙏
They will steal America and imprison, kill or deport anyone who they don’t like. How many steps to fascism before enough people act?
Well, stealing land and getting rid of people they don’t like are among the core founding values of America so this tracks.
But the Epstein files bro, release the list and we defeat facism bro, trust me he is there it doens matter that every one already knows , talk about the lost please bro trust me bro it’s not a complete waste of time trust me bro
Huh?
Idk this dude doesn’t want to arrest a pedo cabal for some reason
American birthright citizenship has been a necessity throughout its period of settlement (by european foreigners) because otherwise the USA wouldn’t exist today. That doesn’t mean that jus soli is a law of nature.
If you take a look at this map, you’re gonna recognize we europeans do just fine without Rule of the Land.
We’ve been doing just fine WITH Rule of the Land, this is a psyop
what does “psyop” mean in that context? i’m not paid by the republicans if that’s what you mean
also, yes, you’ve been doing just fine WITH Rule of the Land in the past, of course. Though if you believe in Economics 101, you’ll understand Supply and Demand, i.e. if there’s more supply of human labor (more people in the country), then the prices for human labor go down, i.e. the people get paid lower wages, and (i claim) that is the biggest contributing factor to human quality-of-life: the ratio of income to cost-of-living.
Now, if you care about the people’s wellbeing, you want to keep their quality-of-life as high as possible. And that socio-economically entails maximizing the ratio of income to cost-of-living. If a lower supply of human labor, such as by a falling birthrate or reduced immigration achieves that, then i’m all for it.
Do you have any more questions?
I dunno what you are getting at, because massive immigration has been an economic miracle for the USA. It’s ballooned the population, drained brains from other countries, and bolstered entire industries.
You know what gives industrialized countries a good quality of life? A young population with a high birth rate, so that the working population isn’t overburdened taking care of retirees, as Korea and Japan are existentially facing now. And low wealth inequality, which is a definite unrelated problem in the US.
The USA has a low birthrate. And immigration has completely made up for it because they skew young.
Take that away?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufmu1WD2TSk
From a purely economic quality of life perspective, setting all morals aside, the US should pull in as many immigrants as it can. We’re basically screwed now.
Meanwhile, the fallacy of immigration hurting wages is basically the South Park episode “Goobacks”
I dunno what you are getting at, because massive immigration has been an economic miracle for the USA. It’s ballooned the population, drained brains from other countries, and bolstered entire industries.
“bolstered entire industries”, i.e. has increased the value of companies at the stock market. people’s wellbeing depends on their individual economic situation. the stock market is the economic situation of the rich.
If 200 million people produce twice as many goods as a 100 million, that just means that just as many goods are being produced per person, and that’s what matters.
You know what gives countries a good quality of life? A young population with a high birth rate, so that the working population isn’t overburdened taking care of retirees, as Korea and Japan are existentially facing now.
That argument is a fallacy and can just as easily be turned around, like:
You know what gives countries a good quality of life? An old population with a low birth rate, so that the working population isn’t overburdened taking care of
retireeskids, as people in the medieval ages faced, where everybody had 6 kids.You should watch the video. I used to be an overpopulation doomer, and it completely changed my perspective, especially when I dug into papers backing it up.
It’s worth mentioning that the videos perspective and conclusions are made within the lens of a capitalistic economy. Other economic models differ in their needs for economic stability. It’s also worth noting that capitalism has its own internal contradictions that have no real solution.
If we extend the logical basis of the video we end up with a scenario where the economy requires infinite growth which requires an infinitely expanding population to sustain. This is just not possible within a closed system with finite resources.
In conclusion we have yet to reach a point of overpopulation, however we aren’t very far from it given the compound growth required to sustain the most common economic system we utilize. Humans have used more of our natural resources in the last generation than all generations of the past put together. We will eventually have to change our economic system and adapt one with a much much lower consumption rate, figure ways to limit our population growth, or more than likely both.
We will eventually have to change our economic system and adapt one with a much much lower consumption rate, figure ways to limit our population growth, or more than likely both.
Of course. 100% agree with this, even if better technology helps. It will have to be pretty soon.
But in the very short term? This is going to be a disaster, and the human population is shooting itself in the foot by not accepting immigration from extreme birth rate countries (where overpopulation is indeed an issue).
“bolstered entire industries”, i.e. has increased the value of companies at the stock market. people’s wellbeing depends on their individual economic situation. the stock market is the economic situation of the rich.
The stock market is one representation of the productivity of a nation. The individual distribution of that productivity is negotiated via labour negotiation.
If 200 million people produce twice as many goods as a 100 million, that just means that just as many goods are being produced per person, and that’s what matters.
Where did you “learn” economics…? Production works on a scale, meaning that 100 million people working with the same efficiency as 200m people will never be able to be as productive.
An old population with a low birth rate, so that the working population isn’t overburdened taking care of
retireeskids, as people in the medieval ages faced, where everybody had 6 kids.Lol, only one of those scenarios has any evidence to support it. The reason people had a lot of kids back then is because they required labour to work the land. The kids were the working population you dolt.
You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
👍
Lol, quotes “economics 101” ignores the basic concept that capitalist economies require growth…which requires a larger population every generation to avoid recession. Something that only immigration is projected to be able to provide.
Don’t attempt to utilize your poor interpretation of economics to veil your blatant racism.
that capitalist economies require growth
I mean, therein itself lies the problem … people are just seen as a statistics, “line must go up” mentality
also i’m not racist
I mean, therein itself lies the problem … people are just seen as a statistics, “line must go up” mentality
And your tirade against immigration is in opposition to seeing people as a statistic…?
If your argument is supposedly against “line goes up mentality” maybe a better target of your claims should be aimed against capitalism, not a poor interpretations of economics claiming how immigrants are bad for the economy.
also i’m not racist
Just have the same ideas as racist, sure…
FIne not a Psyop - I for one agree with birthright just because it’s purely American. We’ve always done it that way and that’s what we do - we kick ass. Screw you wanting to change things. Whats next? This entire term has been coming for one freedom after another.
There’s no borders on “law of nature” neither
well, you could consider the skin a natural border
“we europeans do just fine”
Do you?
I knew a guy who was born in a European country. He’d never lived anywhere else. But, because his parents had citizenship to a different country, he was a citizen of that country, one he had only occasionally visited. To me, that doesn’t sound like a system that’s working just fine. It’s one that has some major problems.
If he was a resident his whole life, why didn’t he apply for citizenship?
It’s notoriously hard in the country he grew up in, and the people are notoriously racist. He doesn’t look like them.
Jus soli isn’t a law of nature, but it is a law of morality. Anything less is effectively the creation of a caste system of full citizens and second-class citizens purely depending on who one’s ancestors are. This is not a hypothetical; many countries historically have been and many still are in such situations due to the lack of birthright citizenship. The fact that most of this map is red is nothing short of an affront to human morality.
Then end it going forward. Don’t retroactively remove it from people who had no choice and who have never known any different.
Then end it going forward.
You mean, “then arrange for a constitutional convention at which you can propose the repeal of the 14th amendment, and then have people vote on it”.
The president has no ability to end either form of birthright citizenship, it can only be done by modifying the constitution.
He is now much closer to his goal
Removing the citizenship of all non white people
With this all out attack on American Citizens. It makes me wonder, if we’re their enemy, who are their allies? And also why aren’t more Heritage Foundation buildings and Republican Offices on fire?
Their allies are white white supremacists who don’t consider you people and because Americans have a severe case of invertebrate-osis respectively.
Hmm who has well documented ties to this administration and would be happy with the downfall of America as a world power? This is one I’ll have to Putin the ol’ think tank for a while
Because the people that hate republicans are usually moral people and wreaking havoc and mayhem isn’t something we usually do.
You’re going to have to because walking around with signs isn’t going to stop this.
What about a strongly worded sign with like eight bullet points?
But that won’t make people on the internet chuckle
Psh, you haven’t seen my signs!
Because Americans are cowards
Well, ask yourself. Why haven’t you done any of these things you’re asking.
Did you ask yourself why I would post those activities on a public forum first?
The courage of your convictions, a call to action for others, leading by example.
There are many reasons you might decide to.
Look, you seem to be Australian. If you’d like to join 50501 and dive from there I won’t stop you. But I get it. You are urging me because I am here. Believe me, there is preparation and movement, Portland is steeped in madness they are resisting so hard, we started late in all states, but its there. Far more than any socials, including Lemmy, show.
I’m not urging you to do shit, tbh.
But I’m tired of all the hand-wringing from people who are waiting for “someone else” to do something.
I’m sorry I didn’t realise you’ve already torched a dozen wasps nests I didn’t know about.
You dont even live here. Go hand wring about your laws that allowed Collective Shout to fuck adult games the planet over.
What the fucks your problem dude?
Fragile fuck.
Their allies? White Racists, neo-Nazis, everyone who wants a dictatorship and the Russians. All of them are worthless shits.
Don’t forget the ultra rich, as much as the ultra rich would like you to forget them.
Trump just released Miller’s plan
Italian plumbers need to pay that cucked pedophile a visit
That would be 🕶️ super
YEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!!!
I was going to get rage-baited into making a “point” about reasoning and how Trump wasn’t a “native” American… but I’m resisting the engagement temptation. There is no “logic”, it’s all about gathering privileges then justifying how to prevent others from doing the same. There is no reasoning, no logic, not even ideology.
In dry bureaucratic language, the memo outlines a plan to revoke citizenship from the children of both immigrants who lack permanent legal status and many lawful residents, including visa holders, Dreamers, and asylum-seekers. It envisions intrusive federal review of parents’ papers—quite possibly in the hospital, before or shortly after birth—to gauge the newborn’s legal status. And it paves the way for people who spend their entire lives in the United States to be deported to countries in which they’ve never stepped foot, or to be condemned to the limbo of statelessness.
I wonder how Marco Rubio feels about this. Neither of his parents were U.S. citizens at the time of his birth in the U.S… Perhaps he’ll be deported to Cuba?
Logically, this combined with their insistence that they can revoke legal status means that no one’s citizenship is guaranteed. Everyone born in the US is descended from people who weren’t citizens. And those who went through a process to become citizens can apparently have that yanked away if the current administration get its way.
If I were the next president and had to try and undo the damage these fascists are inflicting, I’d start by deporting the bastards behind this shit in all three branches of government, starting with the the Supreme Court. Maybe just drop them all off in Antarctica.
SO, If I’m descended from Native Americans AND Canadians, does that mean I’d get deported to Canada, or would being descended from Native people protect me from deportation even if that means I’m not “lily white”?
Why Antarctica? What’s wrong with Sudan or El Salvador? 😜
Too hot!
Hmmm never thought being Native American could be so advantageous till now…
Hope you live and work within a reservation. It are lucky enough to detour you back to one if you don’t. They’re coming for anyone that disagrees with them.
Rules for thee… not for me.
Selective enforcement. Well who knows, they’ll have AI crawling the data
Regarding Lil’ Marco, I wish they’d deport him and his fascist bootlicking family to Cuba
Stop pretending that’s how laws work, abd fucking gight.
Please.
My first thought was Nick Fuentes.
Brb, downloading Duolingo just in case.
been DUO for a few years, I can read quite, but listening to people speaking at normal speed, I’m like a toddler walking into the middle of The Dude and Walter having a deep conversation
Really? These authors clearly need way better imagination cause it’s easily gonna get worse.
Wait… I thought these morons said life begins at conception. Shouldn’t citizenship be determined at that time, then?
They can’t even get their own story straight.
Almost like they never actually cared and were just lying to manipilate you, or something!
Life begins at the moment of insertion.
Citizenship begins when your skin passes the paint swatch test.
Citizenship begins when your skin passes the paint swatch test.
Plenty of Latinos and black folks in ICE, but go off
Useful idiots. There were jews with the Brownshirts too.
I’m curious what you think the significance of that is?
Oh my sweet summer child
You’ve never heard of race traitors before?
Or internalized racism if you want to be more polite
Normally I try to be polite, but it’s difficult when discussing the enforcement arm of a fascist regime.
The one that’s expanding beyond all supposed needs and is clearly planning to be the American Gestapo?
Fair. Wonder why someone would give them the benefit of the doubt!
If not for double standards, Republicans would have no standards at all.
The hypocrisy is baked into their ideology. They don’t need to be consistent, it is all about “winning” to them. Words mean nothing, except as a method to “win”.
Words mean nothing, except as a method to “win”.
This is literally how demons are in Frieren.
Now you are getting it.
I feel like that’s giving them too much credit, The demons in Frieren aren’t immoral they’re just ammoral, they straight up don’t have a concept of morality or empathy except from an external point of view as this strange human behaviour they can manipulate. Fascist on the other than are human and do understand morality and empathy and then choose to ignore and weaponize them anyway, they have so much more malice than a fictional demon.
I don’t know what any of that that means, but I was paraphrasing Sartre:
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
By “anti-Semites” Sartre is of course referring to the Nazis and their sympathisers (it was written in 1944).
Wow, what an “efficient” way to ruin people’s lives. For no reason but the cruelty itself. The UN list of human rights has been ignored completely by most, if not all countries. But everybody is supposed to be entitled to a nationality. Otherwise, where the hell are you going to live? A small uninhabited unowned island? Antarctica? So, in a disturbingly normal turn of events, the government has infringed upon its residents human rights.
They could join the tech- and cryptobros on their libertarian dream cruiseships.
I don’t think most women could be desperate enough to join Elon’s harem. But then again, plenty of women in significantly less dire situations have in fact joined his harem.
As their slaves and concubines!
I don’t understand why this would be a massive problem in the USA. My country (the netherlands) doesn’t have birthright citizenship and it hasn’t caused any issues. Why would it be different in the USA?
The Netherlands has citizenship for people born in the country while their primary residence is in the Netherlands which is pretty similar. It’s important because it was outright guaranteed in the 14th Amendment, which was written to make sure that formerly enslaved African-Americans had a nationality. The country also has an obscenely large and corrupt deportment force, ICE. The country has an extremely long history of immigration, which continues to this day. As far as I know, there’s a lot fewer people moving to the Netherlands, far fewer entering from non-European countries.
That is not entirely true: https://www.nederlandwereldwijd.nl/nederlandse-nationaliteit/nederlander-worden-geboorte-erkenning
The point that takes this as topic is: “Op de dag van uw geboorte woonden u en uw vader of moeder in Nederland. En uw opa of oma woonde op de dag dat uw vader of moeder werd geboren ook in Nederland.”
Which translates to
“On the day you were born, you and your father or mother lived in the Netherlands. And your grandfather or grandmother lived on the day your father or mother was born in the Netherlands.”
So it’s not as simple as you put it, there’s an extra step there in the form of a grandparent.
Oh, that makes sense. I probably misread the site. Mb. Anyways, the US is hypothetically supposed to be inclusive of different cultures and easy enough to immigrate to. It’s not. It’a had better moments though.
