This is not normal. It’s ok to have things like a right wing and a left wing, a conservative side and a liberal side, so to speak. But it’s not ok for the right wing to be any further right than, say, Bernie Sanders.
Sad but not unexpected.
They literally pointed it out in the movie.
While I prefer to not get my political messaging from media productions, I’ll take what I can get. When was expressing good moral values determined to be a bad thing again? I forget.
About 2015?
May 2015, it was in May 2015.
When basic politeness started getting folks called out as “soy boys”.
As far as media productions go, Clark’s been consistently on the correct side of the social spectrum. Except for a few years during WW2.
Explain how punching Nazis while being a character specifically designed to steal “Superman” rhetoric from them is being on the wrong side.
In the early years of the war dude has an issue where he drags Hitler and Stalin before the League of Nations to stand trial from invading Poland.
The only thing I can think of was all the racism against the Japanese… Okay yeah that was bad but it was also segregation era America so that was the style at the time, you take what you can get.
Yeah, I should have specified I was referring to his “Slap A Jap” phase
Just verification that they know their views are despicable at some level, even if they refuse to admit it to themselves.
and/or they looj at lex and worship him for all the wrong reasons.
A not insignificant factor in breaking the early kkk was Superman beating the living shit out of dudes in robes for awhile. They’re just mad it worked twice.
Have you seen The Boys? There’s an actual fan club of Homelander. The series creators are trying to cut it down because it’s the exact opposite of the message they try to bring. Vilans are people’s new heroes now. Like Trump and Musk for example.
At the same time, I like that the antagonists of the boys are people with nuance.
The best shows and stories are ones where both sides believe they are doing what is best for everyone, but disagree on what’s best for everyone… Like Thanos. His idea was good in concept, his execution? Not great.
Man, bit of a tangent, but even as a fast thought experiment, Thanos’s idea was bad. Just his motivation was (debatably) good.
The problem is, the vast majority of species populations can easily double in a generation, given plentiful resources - and plentiful resources was what he was aiming for! Even if everything went exactly as he thought it would, he’s just kicked the can down the road for one generation.
Exactly. The concept was sound, that resources were limited and something should be done about that, but the implementation needed so much work.
He imagined a solution for a very real problem, then went straight to making it happen without allowing the solution to undergo any scrutiny.
It’s the only way! Clearly! People just don’t see it like he does! Right?
homelander was based on trump, and they were obviously parodying Conservatives in the show.
The comics are from long before Trump. (2006-2012) Homelander is just what happens when you give a flawed person Superman powers. That’s the whole premise of the Boys. “What-if superhumans were real people with real flaws?”.
He’s the manifestation of “absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
The Boys is great because it explores how horrific a world like that would be, and how close that world is to ours.
Thankfully I’ve not seen people fawning over Home Lander. I see people say they exist, but I do wonder if that’s drive-by people mistaking fandom of the show for fandom of Homelander.
The guy is a forever child whose insecurity makes him a monster. You’re shown how all his “romantic” relationships are about him being mothered. He literally keeps breast milk in his fridge. He’s an infant given god like powers. There is nothing inspirational about him.
He’s a great villain though.
I love his character, the actor really does a great job. But he’s super evil. He’s a great representation to the real world, as many people think there’s no collateral damage too great to justify reaching their goal. Dehumanizing others, committing war crimes, hunger for power, forcing their beliefs onto others. I despise people like that.
But there are people who think otherwise: See this
I guess I wasn’t trying to say there’s absolutely no-one that idolises homelander. Some people watch Star Wars and want Darth Vader to win. There’s not many of them, and social media tends to amplify the “edge lord” opinions.
Just that I thought sometimes pearl-clutchers can see people enjoying something that contains horrific aspects and interpret it as meaning those people support horrific things.
I think there’s a pretty big difference between someone rooting for the dark space wizard against the light space wizards in a story set in outer space, vs taking the side of a psychopathic superman in a show that’s literally about calling out fascist chuds and male power fantasies, in a world that is meant to directly mirror our own.
Scifi and fantasy also try to mirror the real world. In star wars, the whole story about the empire and the rebellion is basically the story of any great Empire in history. It becomes too big, crooked people take over, it becomes corrupt, it becomes too restricted, too evil to keep power, rebels will fight against oppression and the empire will fall. With a new government filling the vacume, and the whole story starts over again. Heroes become villains. Good guys become bad. They all have their reasons, they all have twisted justifications for their actions. Whatever filter is used, it’s mirroring society. Whether it’s space scifi, fantasy or super heroes.
I’m well aware of the obvious parallels to the real world in Star Wars. The Boys is an accurate reflection of our real world, and how “supers” would behave in an unregulated, ultra-capitalist society.
You can like Darth Vader for looking badass and having a red light saber, without being a fascist. You can’t really say the same for people who actually like Homelander and think he’s a good guy.
I like Homelander because he’s so fucked up, so sick and twisted, such a well written roll and perfectly performed. But I like dystopian worlds, as entertainment. I like Gaspar Noé movies. But I can’t say Homelander is a good guy, no. Just pure evil.
But it’s the same with Darth Vader. Who would think he’s a good guy? You can like him for being cool and evil, but saying he’s the good guy is the same as saying Homelander is a good guy, isn’t it?
Is he doing a great job? I thought he was just portraying himself.
Nah for real, if he’s not a psychopath in real life, he must be a tremendous actor.
Anthony Starr is knocking it out of the park. Amazing performance.
People are stupid
Fascists aren’t people in most of the ways that matter.
They do have viable organs tho, if we wanted to address the shortage in an easy and ethical way.
By dehumanizing them you’re no different. Treat your enemies with respect, they are human too, just dumb pieces of shit. Don’t lower yourself to their level. Be better than them.
Keep pleading for their respect when they have a gun to the back of your head. I’m sure that will work.
Tbh, I do agree with him that we shouldn’t dehumanize. Fascists are humans, who deserve to be put down. There. Easy. No dehumanization, and you can still say that they deserve bullets blowing their brains out the back their heads.
The thing is, I’m not pleading for their respect. I won’t get it. I just won’t lower myself to their level so I will not grant them the argument “see, they are doing the same”.
Reflexive simplistic judgement without willingness to pull apart or confront uncomfortable ideas that may threaten orthodoxy; most antifascist thought.
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Who said I won’t attack them? Of course I would, and have. But within the law, without dehumanizing them.
You call me pathetic, although I’m actively fighting against the far right, oppression and crimes against humanity.
You, on the other hand, show you are just as bad as they are.
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Whether they deserve it or not, I won’t dehumanize them; because I don’t want to become someone who dehumanizes others.
I will certainly fight them, I will resist them, but I will not consider them anything but human.
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Right - fight them! Resist them! But do not let them push you into being inhuman yourself.
That’s the excuse for Hamas to commit terrorist acts on Israel. It’s also the excuse for Israel to commit the worst war crimes of this century by far. Lowering yourself to the level of the enemy makes you just as bad. Be better.
I think very little of them, I’m disgusted by them, I hate them with everything I’ve got, but I will not dehumanize them or justify crimes against humanity against them. No matter whether they would do that to me. They deserve consequences for their behavior. They need to be sentenced for their crimes. Legally, democratically, within the law. If we don’t, how are we any different? They think they are better humans than others, you know, like the nazis. Untermenschen. If you’re not a nazi, fascist or racist, you won’t dehumanize others.
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no different
Addressed elsewhere downthread.
treat your enemies with respect
And if they dont want to be people in any of the ways that matter to me, calling them people eould be profoundly disrespectful. They aren’t me abd dont have my values and treating them like they are/do would be disrespectful.
human
Nobodys arguing that. I just don’t see why it gets brought up. Plenty of people arent human-dogs cats elephants octopi corvids cetaceans. If they’re not lesser for not being human, i dont see why it’s something i should be eating myself out about.
dumb pieces of shit
There’s actually more to it than that. Plenty if dumb pieces of shit aren’t fascists. In some older forms, that imo inevitably went extinct because of the nature of what it is, they didnt even need to be stupid.
don’t lower yourself. Be better
Thanks, got it handled. Take your own advice and don’t be super reactionary and tribalistic while reducing everything to shallow aesthetics. Try rigorous examination if the things you believe and elaboration, rather than reflexive gut reaction, or you really are not so different from them.
If i am able to switch one word in a 3 sentence comment in order make it exactly sound like what a Fascist would say, it is probably not a very anti fascist thing. Dehumanizing the outgroup is very fascist.
Everything accusation is a confession. Why would this one be any different?
If you have meaningful criteria for what personhood is and why it matters-criteria constructed with intellectual honestly to have some actual utility and not just a desire to avoid awkward questions-it’s very likely a fascist does not meet them.
Is chat gpt a person? Why or why not? If yes, what’s the earliest model that counted, why did previous models not?
Odds are most of your answers for not are either silly ‘its not even made of meat’ and kind of offensive (you only think i have value because im meaty and delicious? Wtf? Is steak a person? Tofu?) or apply at least somewhat to fascists, or at least to every fascist’s aspiration.
Is chatgpt a person? Maybe, if you find the right definition. Is chatgpt a human? No.
Is a Fascist a person? Maybe not if you find the right definition. Is a Fascist a human? For sure.
I have no problems fighting fascists, if needed with strong violence. The moment we throw then into a camp for extermination is the point i am going to fight the new fascists.
You can sate your sadism on fantasy, no need to become the monster yourself.
the right definition
Cool, which one(s) do you use? You’re avoiding the question. Which is silly. The point was to highlight the space. Why does this make you so uncomfortable?
person? Skipping that. Human? Of course!
Cool so say hi to henrietta for me. I don’t see why thats a philosophically important thing; being a particular species of ape. Privileging it when there are obviously other intelligent species in the world, other people, seems incredibly bigoted and shitty.
that would make me a fascist!
Industrialized violence is not what makes a fascist a fascist. It is a philosophy. A very stupid one, but a philosophy. Plenty of people before and after gabriel d’anunzio have done plenty of horrible things without being fascists. Fascism is not a synonym for ‘thing i don’t like’, for fuck’s sake. And that sentence is one I’ve heard a fascist say, but apparently you need fucking reminding.
save the nazis!
So i am actually down to have this discussion, albeit from pretty close to team ‘and their families: if it’s old enough to talk it’s old enough to hang’ but you’re avoiding potentially uncomfortable questions because they make you uncomfortable, and i would ask more intellectual honesty from you than you’re willing to give yourself. Which seems rude, so lets not.
It is ok, you win the contest. If you win back your country have fun doing alle the horrible shit to “things” that are not quite human. You have no problem with industrialized violence because thats what america is.
Its the same way all of silicon valley read ‘snow crash’ and was like ‘yeah! Metaverse! Apartheid south african enclaves in los angeles! Mind vontrol virus! Christofascism!’
They can’t, like, read for the editorial content of what the author’s saying. It starts and ends with imagining literal facts.
I blame the total lack of humanuties education.
Same with so the storm trooper Star Wars stuff that seemed to start around the first time Trump ran.
Love the post but am I missing some English education? Whinge? Lol
I think it’s like whine but you’re making fun of the whining person more
Idk I’m not Bri’ish either
UK slang that roughly means whining or complaining.
Merriam-Webster defines it as “to complain fretfully.”
I see
not just UK slang, used in America and Australia too - a bit less common than ‘whine’ which I’d say it’s a synonym of.
Im so glad Im not American. It must be fucking exhausting keeping this dumb as fuck culture war going.
its the billionaires(class war) + a little troll farm is keeping us distracted from the class war. with the help right wing talking heads and fox.
For fucks sake, mate. How can you be so right, and so fucking blind at the same time???
I saw no lies in their comment?
I never said they lied, I said they were right and blind blind at the same time.
How can you be such a stupid bumbling sycophantic fuck stick?
Two week old account, likely a bot
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If thats what being normal is called these days, Ill wear that hat, cunty chops.
I can take a guess as to the hat you wear.
And what are they blind to (you know, the obvious question you were being asked)?
I guess your blind too, since Ive already answered that question multiple times. You must be the most simple of all the culture war weirdos.
Oh ok, then can you link that comment for me where you answer the question? Thx
Feels like they’re arguing with themselves and begging for attention most of the time. It wouldn’t be a problem if corpo bitches didn’t listen to them.
If only they were arguing with themselves. The problem is everyone else who picks a side, and then jumps in arse first with a lot of opinions and very little information that isnt just headlines and buzzwords. People are so fucking angry all the time. And they blame the “other side” for it, not once considering that for every right wing grifter, theres a left wing grifter turning the screw just as hard in order to get likes, shares and subscribes.
Only the time of the online influencer became a thing, we were all fucked. Covid just accelerated to ludicrous speed, and now dark helmet is up all our asses.
Are you really comparing online influencers to actual governmental powers literally stripping our rights and caging people for having the wrong skin color in the name of theocratic fascism while supporting a literal “religious” genocide?
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Who is doing that? Let me guess, the algorithm…
But no, I wasnt doing that. But its all part of the same problem. The culture wars. What youre seeing is the result of all of you running in to it blind as fuck. Thinking everything you see is truth, and everything they say is a lie. And they do the same with you. And theres always a really good reason.
Trump might be a cunt, but that doesnt mean theres not an army of influencers out there generating content to feed your outrage. I mean, look at say The Critical Drinker. Hes one dude, who reviews movies. Pushes the right wing side of things. Right? Not search the name on youtube, and youll find so many people chatting shit about what he said and did, just to get you to click and watch. And thats just one example.
If it demands a click, a like, a share, a subscribe, its content. Not fact. Treat it as such.
Meth is a helluva drug, eh?
Not anymore, it runs off AI. All you have to do is feed the data centers catastrophic amounts of fresh water.
Conservative culture creates whiney little bitch-made motherfuckers that have no meaning in their lives beyond clinging to imaginary grievances. The state of the world would be marginally better if we all learned to stop giving them attention.
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One side is actively building a fascist state. The other is not. Sit down.
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why don’t you tell us how you really feel
How I really feel is that because of people like you, and every other culture war weirdo, is why we have Trump in the first place. You all got the America you deserve. Just a shame its other people paying the price for it. But Im sure you’ll be OK, youve got your worthless internet points…
Americans not understanding other countries exist, an exhibit:
Name a few.
Somebody felt a little called out, huh?
Called out for what? Not a being someone so balls deep in the culture that I can I tell when the fucking algorithm is trying to get me to have really strong opinions about books I never read, movies I never watched, and games I never played? Unlike all you people, who think all this shit is just so fucking important that you think its ok to dehumanise a group of human beings. They do it, you do it. And you all make excuses for it. Hard fucking pass on being one of you lot, with hate so ingrained into your fucking soul.
Someone is really feeling the soapbox tonight
Both sides are not the same dingus
Funny, “they” same the same thing. Youre all balls deep in this shit, and dont even want to fucking see it. Youd rather attack anyone who brings it up. Because god fucking forbid, you actually take responsibility abusers you have ALL become.
Didn’t the same movie have Hawkgirl pulling a Pinochet on the bad guy though? Weren’t they happy enough with that?
No you see because that guy was going to commit a genocide and these people like genocide
Why does the new superman look like such an idiot? The uniform also looks kinda weird and like he’s wearing a red diaper over an I’ll fitting suite.
Bruh, Superman has always looked corny
Cavill’s one looked badass
The only problem I have with this is that it’s fiction.
If even Superman is being targeted, I don’t even want to know what Captain America is up to these days. Is he already the poster boy for ICE?
I’m asking because this isn’t fiction.
I’m kinda in the same boat. I don’t give a fuck about Superman or Bond or any other lone hero fighting against imaginary villains when real villains are running amok.
Even James Gunn seems to be aware of this FWIW
what Captain America is up to these days. Is he already the poster boy for ICE?
Well, yeah, he basically was, for a while.
(These fascist types tend to identify more with the Punisher, though, despite the fact that he’d be the first to shoot them full of bullets.)
I take it you never saw CA: The Winter Soldier. There’s this whole bit about Steve and Nat getting hunted because they didn’t bow to the fascists.
I think it’s very interesting that CA: Winter Soldier was about the secret Nazis that have taken over the military and plan to kill everyone with their drones and facial recognition while CA: Brave New World (Order) is about how slavery is okay when the President General does it and loves his daughter or something
CA: Brave New World (Order) is about how slavery is okay when the President General does it and loves his daughter or something
What? Ross ended up in jail, and was never portrayed as the good guy…
It would be pretty ironic if it was considering he socked Hitler in the jaw all those times
Wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest, because the MAGA cultists somehow still see themselves as patriots.
Irony just doesn’t seem to be their thing, otherwise they probably wouldn’t have voted for the same rapist twice.
I mean, dirty cops love the Punisher, even though he’s canonically killed quite a few of them.
Hes canonically also said he hates cops that worship him because they are supposed to be the vanguard of law and order, not murderers. I think he then went on to kill those cops, to really just nail the whole point home.
Surprise surprise, it didn’t take.
conservatives like the co-opt one part of something they like discard another, much like with WOKE, punisher, and even christian-themed shows like supernatural.
You check the new Daredevil. There’s whole storyline about NYC cop who are way too into the Punisher.
And iirc hates it when cops use his image, as he only need to exist because cops are not upholding justice.
He has outlined this explicitly multiple times in every appearance he’s ever made in anything. It takes a dangerously fucking stupid individual to use him as a symbol for police or justice. The creator of The Punisher has even outlined this in real life too many times to mention.
At this point, my best guess is these guys just don’t actually read any Punisher material.
They don’t. And to top it off they probably make fun of people who do read comics. Like when republicans were up in arms about Jon Kent being bi screaming “THEY MADE SUPERMAN GAY!” Mother fuckers, you don’t even know who the fuck Jon Kent is.
and they dont realized boyz IS ALSO MAKING fun of them and trump at the same time, they like the authotarian nature of shows and media, plus straight white male, but dont realize its conservatives that these shows are parodying.
Real talk: Hollywood didn’t go “woke” you just grew up to be a piece of shit.
No, but, see, superman wasn’t enough of an edgy anti-hero in this one so now I’m sad.
I liked the movie, but could have done without the messaging. I dislike political messaging in media even when I agree with the message, because I’m going to said media to escape reality. I don’t need a reminder about it, and I particularly don’t need some allegorical moral instruction, like I’m some sort of child.
I think there’s a place for political messaging in film—like when it’s the explicit purpose of said film—but I don’t like it being wedged in just anywhere.
I dislike political messaging in media even when I agree with the message, because I’m going to said media to escape reality.
What movies do you like that aren’t political? I’m curious.
The new Fantastic Four movie didn’t have any political messaging in it that I could discern.
So, a character who is meant to embody protecting peace, justice, and freedom for all for as long as he has existed is now too political for advocating peace, justice, and freedom for all?
How dare they impose their politics on such a blank and centrist slate.
No, I just don’t like political messaging in my superhero flicks. You’re misunderstanding my point (possibly intentionally, idk, it’s really not that complicated).
I understand your point, you just don’t understand how character writing works. Removing the politics of a character is bad writing that panders to bad taste.
No, you don’t understand my point, because you think I’m talking about Superman’s “politics.” I’m talking about James Gunn’s politics and him using Superman as a mouthpiece for them. Superman doesn’t have politics in the sense I’m talking about. He’s just on the side of freedom, peace, and good. Classic moral tropes that virtually everyone supports, because without context, they’re just ideals. When you contextualize them with modern, real-world events though, they become political messaging, and that’s what I don’t like in a superhero movie.
> Superman doesn’t have politics in the sense I’m talking about.
> He’s just on the side of freedom, peace, and good.
Damn, you a dense one huh
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No, actually, I think you just proved you’re the dense one.
“No, you are!” - You, that’s what you sound like.
The fuck do you think Superman is doing in the comics?
I can see you’re running out of juice, so I won’t press you further. Have a good night.
Answer the fucking question.
I thought the movie was awful, but the message was good. The plot was just bad. The characters were so unrealistic that it was distracting. Like, the people Luthor had in his command centre. These ordinary people were eager to kill, or at least badly injure Superman? That detail needed an explanation. It wouldn’t have needed one if they hadn’t focused so much on those characters, but for some reason they were made an important part of the story.
The only really great scene in the movie was when Lois Lane grilled Superman on his intervention in the war. It was good to see a good-hearted man who was confident he had done the right thing stumble when asked hard questions.
conservatives like you are, what they are making fun of, because of ridiculous they take things.
I’m a liberal and a progressive, so that shows how poor a room-read you have. Come back when you have better grasp of things.
Gouge out your eyes then
Delete your comment before the mods do.
1: They can come and take it 2: Lol
That was the explicit messaging of the movie. The scene with Superman not understanding why some people might have an issue with him saving lives, to him convincing the other Heroes to throw realpolitik to the side to do the same, to Lex completely not understanding altruism. It wasn’t just wedged in. It’s was the whole point of the movie.
No, it wasn’t the whole point of the movie, it was a thinly veneered plot that mimicked and commented upon real-world events. The central themes of the film were about identity being defined by one’s choices and actions, rather than one’s genetics or parents’ wishes. Films that explicitly critique society are films like Brazil or The Manchurian Candidate, and I have no problem with them because they’re explicit in their purpose at being political commentary. Making a superhero movie that’s purpose is rebooting the DCEU and inserting a political message into it is not explicit at all.
God forbid Superman ever get involved in politics, like Smashing the KKK or warning kids about landmines.
And you can have more then one plot device in a movie. I’m actually tankful that the whole “defined by choices, not by birth” wasn’t the only plot line because I’ve seen that one countless times by now. “Kindness is punk” is a counter cultural idea by now and was refreshing to see.
Fellas, is it gay to value your loved ones and oppose violence?
Hella gay. Let’s go do crimes about it.
Waaaaah! Suoerman isn’t enough if an edgy antihero for me!
