As Torvalds pointed out in 2019, is that while some major hardware vendors do sell Linux PCs – Dell, for example, with Ubuntu – none of them make it easy. There are also great specialist Linux PC vendors, such as System76, Germany’s TUXEDO Computers, and the UK-based Star Labs, but they tend to market to people who are already into Linux, not disgruntled Windows users. No, one big reason why Linux hasn’t taken off is that there are no major PC OEMs strongly backing it. To Torvalds, Chromebooks “are the path toward the desktop.”
He’s right. If vendors offered Linux based machines people would try. Valve is helping Linux adoption more than all the big names like Dell, Lenovo, HP… combined.
Are you talking about a Chromebook?
Aside from that… I remember when I had my very first help desk job in 2008, Dell was shipping Latitude laptops with Linux for $90 less than the laptops that shipped with Windows… which is what a lot of places did that already paid for their own licensing direct from MS.
I’m aware of Dell officially supporting Ubuntu on their business machines, I appreciate that. What I meant is the market impact. Dell sells those development oriented workstations for those who actively seek them.
Go to any consumer store, online or meatspace, anything that is not a Macbook or Chromebook comes with windows.
(Of course it’s a chicken and egg problem, stores don’t want to stock things that won’t be in high demand)
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The unfortunate thing is that OEMs don’t really have an incentive to ship Linux-powered systems.
Have you ever noticed how vendors who ship computers with Linux often do so at the same or greater cost than Windows? I believe I have heard somewhere that Microsoft subsidizes OEMs for shipping with Windows, which is scummy but Linux can’t really compete with this.
Have you ever noticed how vendors who ship computers with Linux often do so at the same or greater cost than Windows?
Yeah… Even when going to Linux exclusively, it’s usually better to pick the Windows device.
I tend to keep to Lenovo, and have noticed that it will vary per device.
Some devices when on deep discount will go up in price if you switch from Windows to Linux as the OS selection - because the discount was on a specific configuration and now you have gone outside that.
On other devices, you switch from Windows to Linux, and you save $$. Pretty hit/miss.
Not sure if they still do, but PC Manufacturers used to get kick backs from every vendor they added shovelware for. For example, E-Machines was famous for it… AOL, Adobe, Office, shareware “pay to unlock” versions of games, Norton, etc. everyone sent checks to Dell, HP, Compaq, etc, just to peddle their wares for them.
Before big commercial companies can succeed with the mainstream, flatpak permission handling that is as smooth as Android and iOS. Not everything is going to be in the distros base package manager and devs need a way to distribute software that can be expected to work on any of these devices. No confusions over why they’re system doesn’t know what to do with a deb or rpm file. Flatpak is the closest thing right now to something with universal adoption. After that it’s a slow and steady grind for market share. Like how Macs market share 20 years ago isn’t very different from where Linux is today
I think a hardware company could succeed better by marketing the devices as creation devices. Focus on Blender, Krita, Ardour, Darktable, Kdenlive, etc. Pretty much the niche Macs were marketed as 25 years ago getting regular people interested with stuff like garageband and imovie
Adobe.
A fraction of 1% of desktop users use creative suite
Pretty sure at least half of Adobe’s users are on macOS.
Autodesk.
I use older versions of Photoshop. Sorry, GIMP ain’t it.
To Torvalds, Chromebooks “are the path toward the desktop.”
What does he mean by this?
I struggle to believe Chromebooks will meaningfully contribute to more people adopting Linux, because Google is more interested in getting people to adopt Google instead.
I imagine he means things like Chromebook, rather than Chromebook itself. Mass-market consumer hardware which comes with Linux by default
The Steam Deck. It’s been my daily PC since I got it.
Linux as we know it being very customizable and having many choices will never work for mass market. If Linux becomes a truly mass market consumer OS then it will be within walled garden of a large corporation like Google or others.
Everyday people want a computer with a brand name they recognize and for it to just work with all the big name software they know already. They likely won’t even know they are using Linux, it’s something us nerds will know but to them they are just using Google, Microsoft, Meta, or whoever else gets Linux to mass adoption.
problem is, a “linux” from google/microsoft/meta will solve 0 problems we have today with windows
From my perspective, he is probably referring to chromeOS’s crosvm container, which virtualises a debian install (or other distros). Since Chromebooks are popular in schools, predominantly in the USA but even still globally, students are likely to attempt to gain further functionality out of their devices, and hence experiment with Linux, get used to it and possibly install it on different devices (or on that same Chromebook through the mrchromebox firmware) in the future.
Edit: alternatively, he could just be referring to flooding the market with cheap Linux laptops for specific purposes like education workflows or standard consumer workflows, just like how Chromebooks achieved that footing in the market.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. What Linux needs is a straight forward setup. Yes Mint is normally super easy to install but can also randomly just not work due to what is often a very simple issue but one obscure enough that the inexperienced (like me) will take hours or even days of trying different solutions until they find it. I love how light linux is but an extra half a gigabyte in the setup to just innately include solutions to the most common issues would pull in way more people than it would push away.
Linux, in my experience, has been way less painful to set up than Windows. It takes like 1/4 of the time, and I don’t end up with half my shit in One Drive because I misclicked.
I’d agree with that when it works. When linux setup works its great, when it doesn’t work getting it working again is obscure as hell, Windows almost always sets up correctly first time but its obscure as hell to not make it be kind of shitty.
I’m not sure it’s good for Linux to attract disgruntled windows users. It would be better to attract people who actually want to use an OS that is different to Windows, rather than ones that just want a Windows that works. Linux is not a version of Windows.
No one wants to use any OS.
People just want to use their computer easily, and do what they want with relatively little hindrance or concern. The overwhelming bulk of people, I’d wager, Don’t care about the OS as long as it stays the hell out of the way and isnt obnoxious.
Which is why Windows reigned for so long, because regardless of what criticism you throw at it… Microsoft was amazingly successful at creating a GUI and interface that you could set anyone in front of and they’d be able to figure out basic usage in half an hour with relatively little direction… and, especially in its heyday of windows 7, did an excellent job of just being mostly invisible to everyday use. It wasnt even a thought in your head. Just throw your disc in/download your software, and run. No thought, no worry. Just doing what you need and want to do, without having to think about it or worry about it.
Linux, depending on the distro, is finally getting close to that same place… Where you can just use it without having to think about it to much. Where you don’t have to dig into a terminal and look up command line actions and such. For basic mom&pop email and banking computers, you know…basic web based stuff, Linux has been there for I would say almost a decade at this point.
But for gaming and other stuff? I You’ve been able to do it for longer, but I’d say the past 2 years have just been an absolute golden age of being able to just do stuff without really having to worrying about your OS/proton/etc. The only remaining roadblock that requires you to stop and think at all is to see if the game uses a kernal based anticheat, and thats pretty much the only roadblock to playing a small minority of games on linux, Which doesnt feel like a small minority if those are the bulk of the games you play, in all fairness… But thats not even linux’s fault. Blame the devs for being shady fuckers for it, cause plenty of BIG games out there use regular old anticheat that doesnt have to have full root access to your computer and often does an even better job at stopping shit than the kernal anticheats.
Microsoft was amazingly successful at creating a GUI and interface that you could set anyone in front of and they’d be able to figure out basic usage in half an hour with relatively little direction
Huh? Windows is a confusing mess. I don’t think this is true at all. Windows was successful at being in businesses, and the what I learned at work became what I use at home.
Edit: I know this from experience, I set up a lot of linux users over the years. No computer experience: Linux was just as easy, if not easier thanks to package management, than windows.
I watched new computer people struggle with windows far more often.
Then there was the I barely know windows user switching to Linux who complained about the whole thing because of their ingrained habits.
A lot of people just want a browser that works. They don’t care at all about anything else in the OS. For them, Linux can be perfect. So if they’re disgruntled that Windows keeps shoving ads and AI bullshit in their eyeballs, when all they want to do is check their email and watch YouTube, a preinstalled Linux laptop is a great answer.
It would be better to attract people who actually want to use an OS that is different to Windows, rather than ones that just want a Windows that works. Linux is not a version of Windows.
Absolute agreement.
Around the turn of the century, we used to say something like, “Linux is for people who hate Microsoft, BSD is for people who love UNIX.”
Not much has changed in the larger discussion about Desktop Linux. General discussion is driven by how “safe” and “comfortable” Windows users feel installing and using it for the first time. It’s a bullshit discussion.
It’s a weird relationship, like a new girlfriend who is always comparing you to the last boyfriend who beat her. She may even go back to him because he is familiar, without ever recognizing that you are better in every way.
Linux as a desktop is perfectly fine and usable on it’s own, without comparison to Windows. I’ve used it for over a quarter century and had a normal life, from middle school through postgrad and a decade-long career. My kids use it for everything including school and gaming and have no problems making friends and turning in assignments. People need to get out of the poverty mindset that Windows is the standard for a desktop. It’s fucking terrible. Linux has been usable for the desktop for 25 fucking years for those who want it. Windows itself copied many things from the Linux desktop, going all the way back to the first themes on Windows XP, and now there’s an entire Linux subsystem for Windows, all because Linux has been been better at package management and dependency resolution since the Clinton administration. Windows is fucking awful as a desktop.
that is good point. Having tons of people who would prefer to use windows but cant or dont for some reason is the way for them starting to demand stuff that would make things more like windows. Have enough of them and they might start having an impact and who knows where that might lead, most likely nothing positive though.
For years and years the barrier to entry was mom or gramma buying a clipart CD for $4.99 at the grocery store, bringing it home, and expecting it to work.
Now that’s not a thing anymore, but they still aren’t using it. So I guess the barrier to entry now is they see that ad for the casino app that “pays you real money” and they expect to download it and expect it to work.
Until mom and grandmom can load up the computer with all sorts of malware that breaks everything, they really aren’t interested.
I’ve bought several Dell laptops over the last 20 years, the Windows install on them was strangled in it’s crib every time, and it was still miles cheaper than these other vendors.
If anyone needs to have Linux preinstalled on their computer and can’t click through the 3 steps in a typical Linux install nowadays, they probably should use something like a SpeakNSpell instead of a computer.
It’s SJVN. That’s all you need to know.
He’s no Cringely.
The fundamental issue is that the desktops themselves are inferior products. Linux desktop developers spent years arguing which bad solution is better for a solved problem.
The gap is closer now but that’s only because Windows is killing itself.
So, what is the solved problem supposed to be? The link doesn’t really tell me anything except that it about a customisable titlebar or something.
Huh? Linux has had the superior desktop experience for over a decade.
Windows just recently managed to get the basics like an actual clipboard, tabbed file management.
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What is an “actual clipboard”??
Selectable, historical, you know actually useful.
Windows 10 introduced a half ass attempt that finally worked with all programs and could be considered functional.
Edit: to add an example look at this post on windows help by a Windows 7 user:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/2660614/access-clipboard-windows-7
I have clipboard history enabled but holy is that an actual security nightmare.
IMO not a good requirement to have.
As always the security is with the user. No clipboard is just unusable.
And we are talking windows here, security was never important apparently until windows 10 anyways.
In fairness X11 was a threat right? That is one of the reasons Wayland broke so much.
As for the clipboard, kde applications can have a setting to say “this is a secret” and you can set to won’t clip. But passwords are so out of favor I am not sure it matters. If you had a keylogger running you are screwed, if you had an application harvesting the clip board I suppose that isn’t great, but how would it know what application/service/etc requested the contents?
No clipboard is just unusable.
there’s no “no clipboard”, what are you talking about? there’s been a clipboard in any OS since XP that I have used
security was never important apparently until windows 10 anyway
what? have you heard about 7?
As for the clipboard, kde applications can have a setting to say “this is a secret” and you can set to won’t clip.
I doubt that’s a setting, it’s just how it works. It’s not like it’s KDE specific behavior,even windows 10 is doing that.
I won’t even comment on the rest, but it’s bullshit
Windows did not have a functional clipboard. Go look at all the complaints over the years.
Windows historically had only a single-item clipboard and no built-in UI/history.
A separate one shipped with MS Office that let you store something like 12 to 20 items. Why? Because windows sucked and DID NOT HAVE ONE.
Windows itself did not get a built in Win+V searchable/historical clipboard until windows 10.
what? have you heard about 7?
Yes, better than XP, still not good. I am not going to do your homework, but Windows 10 was the first release that really focused on isolation, secrets management, and virtualization of applications for system wide and user protection.
I won’t even comment on the rest, but it’s bullshit
Just as well, you don’t know what you are talking about anyways.
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Do you not know what a clipboard is? Did you not use linux for years and when you had to deal with the windows desktop it was easily in the top 10 of really annoying things a computer should be able to do?
In windows 10 they finally got a resemblance of clipboard. The bare minimum.
Meanwhile, Linux had a qr reader/writer, full object cut and paste, actions, white-space trimming, history length adjustment, persistence between sessions, blacklisting, clipboard editing, functions, search, sorting, should I keep going?
You can find multiple complaints over the years about how bad windows was at this.
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You need me to spell out what I said? Windows did not have a clipboard. That is it. You could enable one separately for word/excel for awhile.
Otherwise the system got one slot. ONE to hold text. That was it. And there wasn’t even a way to look at the contents for a very long time.
I was explaining what I mean. What more could i say?
You are highlighting exactly what I am talking about: Linux has had a ton of features for the desktop for years (better right click context menus, better network protocol support, better nearly everything) but windows people didn’t so they don’t even know why using windows was basically living in the dark ages until Windows 10 started to get some worthwhile features. Windows 11 was the first to actually get a nearly functional file manager for example.
I mean you are thinking QR read/write is not a useful clipboard feature?
That’s a weird thing to present as an absolute truth. As someone who has exstensively used both Windows (3.1, 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, 7, 8, 10 and 11) and macOS (from 2011-2022), and now using KDE Plasma on my daily driver laptop, GNOME at work and Cinnamon for my living room machine: all three Linux DE are superior experiences.
Surely there are people who would prefer Windows and macOS over them, but it is highly subjective.
To Torvalds, Chromebooks “are the path toward the desktop.”
Please don’t associate Linux with a close-source proprietary neutered web browser owned by an ad company.
The average Joe doesn’t care.
Exactly. I wouldn’t touch a chromebook with a barge pole. Who wants Google to watch absolutely everything you do?
You won’t, but the average Joe will.
Average Joe lives in ignorance and doesnt know enough to care.
and theres also a good chance they don’t care enough to know… until shit hits the fan of course.
I’m lost for what point you’re trying to make, in relation to this topic and article.
In which case average Joe needs people like us to push back against coercive bullshit so that it doesn’t become entrenched.
Nothing is needed for me, I already replaced Windows. It’s been a while actually.
Same. Im a total noob and there are challenges to using Linux but Microsoft are assholes who treat customers like shit so screw them
Windows comes with its own set of challenges in the form of wanting things set up differently from how MS wants them set up and not wanting to be nagged about using their shitty programs and services. I got to the point where any time the OS or software initiated some kind of contact with me, it would annoy me even if it might have been helpfull because I’m so used to those being from the marketing department.
Like I’ve noticed that Linux can do things without annoying me even if that thing used to annoy me on windows just because I don’t have that expectation that it’s trying to sell me something.
Welcome to the family. 🐧🫂
That’s why we need FreeBSD on the desktop /s
Choice is both one of Linux’s greatest strengths and weaknesses. There are so many distros that offer something great an unique, but that also leads to choice paralysis as well as fragmentation. I think Bazzite has been great for the Linux gaming space because it does offer a single user experience that reduces the knowledge barrier for those just getting into Linux.
“Everyone wants to save the world, but no one can agree on how…”
The linux problem in a nutshell
Yep, choice is nice, but everyone and their uncle rolling out distros is excessive as all fuck. Especially when there is precious little that isnt ultimately, deep down, just another flavor of Debian, Arch or Fedora.
So? There are lots of restraint and cars and people manage to just pick one
They also usually stay true to their car brand.
So the choice has been narrowed down to their house brand and the current/last year model.
So much choices… /s
This is one of the coolest things about Universal Blue OSs like Bazzite. You can very easily roll your own custom OS based off of one of their images. And it’s all automated.
I feel like that’s the best of both worlds. Extreme customizability and standardization.
Thats not actually a problem. Every other OS has that problem.
Mac will never get 100% market share because there will always be people that hate their workflow. Linux can offer a tailored version to everyone’s liking.
As long as they don’t need nividia drivers.
As long as they don’t need nividia drivers.
Luckily NVidia is rather selling their GPUs to AI datacenters than to home consumers.
There are versions that ship with the proprietary nvidia driver. The reason people have issues is the distros shipping the open version due to philosophy or distros shipping the open version for compatibility reasons. The open version is worse but at least it works the proprietary version doesnt support a lot of cards.
I’ve been using Linux for my primary gaming machine since 2016, and I’m amazed at how fast I was up and running in Bazzite.
In 20 minutes I installed the OS, pointed it to my steam drives, and had Expedition 33 running with an Xbox Controller over Bluetooth.
I felt the same way when I switched to Nobara.
it was the fastest, easiest, most hands off install of linux I ever had. and that same kind of stuff carries over into its every day usability. I do precious little thinking of “I have Linux” or “I have Nobara” anymore, I just think “Imma go do X” and immediately do X without issue.
Linux has become absolutely amazing, especially for gaming, in the past couple years… as I said in a previous post, yeah you’ve been able to game on linux for longer than that… but the past 2 years have just been fuckin butter.
Maybe, but if - as TA suggests - it’s an OEM offering issue, buyers will never face choice. Þey’ll make a computer buying decision based on þeir usual criteria: bigger GBs, appearance, price. Þe specific distribution would largely be irrelevant to most. Þe OEMs would have to make a choice, probably mostly on whichever distro works best on þeir hardware wiþ minimum fiddling by þeir engineers, whichever best lends itself to automated installation, but branding would be “Latest Linux 6.18.1! Free upgrades forever!” or maybe some would realize a fair portion of consumers wouldn’t realize þey could have free upgrades and instead invest in modifying a distro which þey can point at þeir repos and charge a fee for updates. Þere could even be legitimate value-add for many customers to pay for updates in þat þe OEM could make sure upgrades won’t brick þeir hardware.
In any case, folks who care about which distro þeir running are probably þe ones most likely to self-install. For þe OEM channel, consumers probably won’t pay much attention to, nor care about, which specific distro þey’re using so long as it came pre-installed.
I’m not sure oem adoption would make many people migrate. Here in Brazil, it’s a common practice for oems to sell computers with linux, and they cost cheaper, with the same hardware configuration. The result: people see them just as a cheaper option and ask their Tech Friend™ to install a pirated windows for them.
I don’t think that people don’t make tech choices. They actually choose windows, and will find a way to have windows, if it’s not a default. People who use linux do so mostly as a choice, not simply because it came installed.
I mean, sure. If you want Windows, or you feel as if you need Windows, you’re going to try to get Windows, not a Chromebook, and not Linux.
I’ll never not downvote comments that unnecessarily use characters like “Þ” instead of actual words.
I think the idea is to fuck with AI. Why not, it doesn’t really help much, it doesn’t do much harm either.
I agree the “harm” is small. But when the benefit is zero and the harm non-zero, the author is wasting our collective time.
I think today is the day I block @Sxan@piefed.zip … sorry dude.
I think they should go all the way and use both letters. Þþ is for th as in ‘thing’ Ðð is for th as in ‘the’ XP
what about just growing up
I think there is a strategy in what you are pointing out.
For the general public, its not that we should advocate for the use of software, but for the use of a package of hardware+software.
People dont say they want iOS or MacOS or even Windows. They say they want an iPad, Macbook or ASUS Strix Laptop. The software is not a primary consideration for them.
The Steam Deck is the prime example. Its about making the package attractive.
If we can do things like have Bazzite make a deal with Steam for “Steam Machine” accreditation, that can be packaged and marketed to be sold by the hardware vendors. Probably starting with the gaming system integrators.
We need a similar brand and package for general purpose users, but I dont know what the set of hooks would be to make it marketable. Maybe its right to repair, maybe 10 years of software support. Maybe a 10 year warranty. Something the community still needs to figure out. Linux Mint is probably one of the most suitable for this package.
