Alright people, that’s a wrap. I’m going to be handing out a few bans, if you think I’ve banned you wrongly (or missed someone) feel free to message as I’m only human and may make some mistakes trying to navigate this dumpster fire of a comments section.
Edit: Done, I think? Some comment removal is not working, or maybe taking a bit of time in the background. Please report anything you see if you’ve come across it.
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Oh god mgtow. That whole thing is a walking red flag
For anybody else who hadn’t heard about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way
I’ve seen this one before! In The Little Rascals!
Back when I first heard about it I thought it was really nice that there was a group of men supporting each other in rejecting the idea that heterosexual monogamy was the only path to a fulfilled life. Life is full of disappointment.
I generally dislike writing off people (or groups or things) based on a soundbite or a hashtag - I’d much rather evaluate for myself whether there’s any decent and informative point to the content.
#mgtow though… The very presence of it makes one cringe, and I can’t think of an occasion when it hasn’t descended into a dumpster fire from there.
I suppose it’s nice of them to flag their own content so well really.
Yeah, I miss when I didn’t know what it really meant. My imagined world was so wholesome
Genuinely curious, your world was wholesome before that single fact?
no no the world i imagined all those mgtow people making their threads about, with guys throwing their own tea parties for themselves and going on little hikes by themselves and having little log cabins for their pet screaming possums. i don’t live in the real world it’s scary out there
I understand now, I genuinely didn’t get what you said before. I learned about incels and mgtow at the same time, so I knew that they are literally the same thing under a different name (misogynist, violent, hateful and very partial to the fat right). The abbreviation sounds very harmless.
It overall reminded me why I fucking hate social media in general.
The concept of it isn’t intrinsically bad. There’s nothing wrong with men who just want to be single and focus on things other than relationships. The problem arose when it was co-opted by hateful incels and misogynists.
Co-opted my ass. It was started by incels pretending to be stoics.
Huh, must have changed a bit. When I came across it years ago it seemed like a reasonably healthy response for an incel - stop worrying about women and work on yourself.
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Also, it ignores the clear intended meaning of the work to attack the artist for a completely different interpretation.
To be clear, I am fully in camp Death of the Author, but if that is how you analyze art, you do not also get to attribute your interpretation back to the original artist.
This is particularly annoying in this instance, because “your argument just proves my point” is a thought terminating cliche that is highly utilized in this particular discourse, from the side that the commentator appears to be from.
What’s the clear intended meaning of the work?
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What the actual fuck.
You took their reply and twisted its meaning completely then you put it in quotes as if somebody had actually said that.
And then you complain about fallacies and brain-dead discourse? Oh the sweet, sweet irony…
Like how the reply twisted the original meaning of ‘this is what’s wrong with choosing the bear’ into ‘you deserve to be mauled’
I laughed aloud at this one - you’re very correct. My grammar isn’t perfect, but I try… I’ve had people point out that I use commas in chats, as if that’s a crazy thing to do.
Twitter was invented years ago, and I saw stupidity manifest. The concept was to force people into dumbing down their statements, and it was character limited to make things as worse as they could get.
Twitter won, though. And then, years later, Musk took it over. So now we have this… Even the people we agree with seem to have been impacted. And oh man, AI is going to strip anything left fully away for those that use it for their writing.
There is no logical fallacy. They are responding to a self-identified incel (the mgtow hashtag in the picture). They know what they are about, and it is a waste of time pretending they are not.
A bear wouldn’t have made such a post in the first place. So already men is worse.
Bear - kills someone. Man - posts something. Man is worse. Is that what you’re saying?
I never saw a bear do a mass shooting, or sentence someone to life in prison, or waterboard someone, or build an oil pipeline, or pass a tax cut for the rich. Men are way more powerful than bears, so they have to be better. Strength is for protecting the weak.
The vast majority of bears have never hurt anyone.
So… Have the vast majority of men.
Men kill thousands of people every day. Bears don’t.
I’d be concerned if they did, considering there’s about a billion times less interaction between people and bears.
Edit: A billion times less is literally still understating the difference…
Lemmy really is just like reddit huh
Which bear has killed someone? Nowhere in the debate is an actual bear present.
And even if there was a bear, are you going to ignore all the killing men has done in the same time frame?
no. clearly no. bears are opportunist cowards. you can deal with them quite easily. yes, they’re dangerous, but they’re not ever actively problems.
i’m curious why you’re judging the bear by the worst possible outcome rather than the most likely outcome and the man by this specific outcome.
You’re telling that he don’t have a grin on his face? You go to so much effort to faint the ignorance about the obvious “you get what youn deserved” tone of the work.
You’re better than this. Or at the very least you should strive to be.
You’re reinterpreting the comment and doing so in a way that misses the crux of their argument.
They are commenting on the cartoon being a vengeance fantasy against women. Which it is.
So women’s choices are now men having revenge fantasy ?? So you’re a misandrist.
No, the women’s choice didn’t include men making revenge fantasy posts. Don’t move the goal posts.
The question was “would you rather be alone in the woods with a man or a bear”, right? Is this not the logical conclusion of the bear option? Like, I very much agree this is bad hearted revenge fantasy but this is the logical conclusion of choosing the bear. They’re not cuddly.
The question was “would you rather be alone in the woods with a man or a bear”, right? Is this not the logical conclusion of the bear option?
No, it is absolutely not.
Explain. If you were teleported directly in front of a bear and directly in front of a stranger, how you would fare better with the bear. In detail, please.
No, that wasn’t the question. Are you moving the goal post to be offended?
If there’s a bear 800m away from me, he’s not likely to move in my direction. If he moves in my direction, then of course I’ll turn around and run and that’ll be it.
If there’s a man 800m away from a woman in the woods, she doesn’t know what he’s going to do. If he starts going in her direction, she still doesn’t know what he’s going to do, so maybe she waits until he’s much closer. And when he’s much closer, she still doesn’t know what he’ll do, right until it’s too late. Maybe he’ll just say hi your shoelace is undone, or maybe he’ll stab you.
That’s the point. You don’t know how dangerous the man might be and you don’t know how worse your odds get the longer you fail to react. You know what to do with a bear and you can react immediately to be safe sooner.
No, the question was: would you rather be alone in the woods next to a random man or a random bear.
This implies anonymity and no consequences of actions. So the way people act online.
A consequence free man is capable of anything. A bear would only maul you.
Jesus Christ have you people ever been outside? You act like all men are just raping beasts being kept back by a thin thread. Have you ever considered that one of those things a man could do would BE NICE? Like a HUMAN? Probably not since you clearly don’t even consider them human. Good God I am so disappointed in humanity.
No, I do not act like like all men are raping beasts. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Especially since I am myself a man. So I know for certain we aren’t all raping beasts.
But please, show me one bear that has raped a human woman. We get stories like that all the time from men. And we should be angry towards them for making men look bad, rather than towards the women who fear us.
Jesus Christ have you people ever been outside?
Here’s a short video of women being outside in public spaces: https://www.tiktok.com/@specere/video/7472932570162924831
Imagine encountering that on a daily basis and then someone asks you how you’d feel encountering a random man in the woods?
This is the perfect case for a “No you”. As in YOU are the one moving goalposts by saying “How dare men talk back”.
Why you would put in quotes your own interpretation of what they said?
I think you are guiltier of this internet braindead than Carter, you are simplifying and twisting their message, when the concept is quite clear.
You are talking about fallacies while committing fallacies, just to obscure the real situation here.
The original cartoon is misogynistic and the reply is pointing that out. It is as simple as that.
This makes me throw up in my mouth, its just revolting. Miss me with Facebook anything
itt: people not knowing how bears operate
its man-bear-pig!
I’m not gonna fight a bear, that would result in two dead people. This image is something else, though
Post of a kind “Men once again prove women right”
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Jeez. These comments.
Yeah, I’m shocked at the level of misogyny on Lemmy. I swear shit was never this bad even a few months ago? Maybe I was being ignorant.
the root of most hate, and i mean like… DEEP hate isn’t any active emotion towards another person but instead an unwillingness to audit our blindspots. what i see a lot on lemmy is people who are steeped in Internet Culture who assume that they are progressive, forward thinking, and have it all figured out. i try to come into discussions with the mindset that i’m guilty of this, too, and that i’m a work in progress.
there’s also a deep seated fundamental misunderstanding of what feminism is here that matches very directly to what you would get used to seeing on reddit. it’s kind of funny, because it demonstrates that the Read Theory bros theories don’t consider critical marxist analysis of gender to be part of the theory that needs to be read, which is frustrating, bordering on upsetting. anytime i recommend someone read bell hooks’ Feminism is For Everyone i get antsy about how long in will take for someone who’s let conservatives tell them what feminism is to tell me that’s a propaganda rag and that bell hooks doesn’t know what feminism is
it’s like solidarity amongst the lower classes only matters up until the point when you have to start working against the oldest arbitrary division that’s been used to keep us from organizing
it’s like solidarity amongst the lower classes only matters up until the point when you have to start working against the oldest arbitrary division that’s been used to keep us from organizing
Unfortunately, I think a lot of the read theory bros on lemmy are people who are less concerned about solidarity with the lower class, and really just involved in Marxism because they want to abolish class because they’ve incidentally fallen into the lower class.
There seems to be a lot more anger about their own displacement within their own society than the plights of more disenfranchised minorities classes. I think that’s why a lot of the Marxist/communist instances are so obsessed with the particulars instead of being a more big tent community.
the Read Theory bros theories don’t consider critical marxist analysis of gender to be part of the theory that needs to be read, which is frustrating, bordering on upsetting
As a big Read Theory Bro, turned Read Theory Girl, holy fucking shit, this is so true.
Marx, Lenin, and friends are great, but there’s so much Feminist and Queer Marxism out there worth reading
Engles’ Origin of The Family, Private Property and The State
Alexandra Kollontai’s Communism and The Woman Question
Anuradha Ghandy’s Philosophical Trends in the Feminist Movement
Transgender Warriors by Leslie Feinberg
Na, never has been different. Look up any thread that even mildly implies men could do something wrong and it’s only hate from there on.
I wonder why tough. Lemmy is fairly left, pro LGBTQI+, etc. but in regards to anything mildly feminist you get… well, this kind of lovely thread.
I feel bad for note paying attention to it sooner. I think I’m going to have to post more of this sort of content all over the place to piss of the sexists.
Sadly brocialism is a thing amongst some leftists.
Well, reddit migration I guess.
Well, it’s egalitarian, so there’s your answer. Equal
Fuck equality!
I do love that picture. I wish it’d be more reflected in real life. That said, none of those people are being brought DOWN - the people in need are being brought UP. Big difference
Fuck misogynists.
If you’re not a misogynist you shouldn’t feel hurt when I say that.
Agreed. But it’s not “would you rather be stuck in the woods alone with a bear or a misogynist”, it’s with a man, isn’t it? People can’t help what they’re born as. You’re judging them for something completely out of their control. Their gender no less, which a lot of men aren’t happy they were assigned. And on the other hand you’re actively shitting on trans masc choices to be men. I just don’t think this sweeping sexism is the answer.
A potential solution to a lot of gender-related issues is to make agender the default. Gender should be opt-in not opt-out. This way more people will not have a gender to be treated as, and people will get more used to treating people in the same way with little regard for gender.
However, this would be difficult.
Because it’s unnecessarily inflammatory. The “bear or men” thing is apparently interpreted completely differently by at least some men and women and instead of listening to each other it just ends up as hate for each other. Why would you want to piss of the men that are on your side?
Why would you want to piss of the men that are on your side?
… If this question pisses you off, maybe you’re not as on the side of women as you think you are.
They’re not asking if people would feel more safe with a bear or you, they’re asking about a completely random, unknown man.
I’m sure you are one of the good ones, I’m sure the majority of people on this thread are, but it’s not about that, it’s about the unknown.
You shouldn’t be pissed off at women for being afraid of men, you should be pissed off at men that make women afraid.
Nobody wants to be lumped in with a bunch of people they find disgusting, which is what the question is about. I can fully understand women replying the way they do, but I can also fully understand men getting upset over the implication. It’s bullshit ragebait and dividing us unnecessarily.
If you’re upset over the implication then I have bad news for you: every time you’re walking down the street and about to pass a woman, the exact same thought is likely going through her head. There’s a very high chance that said thought is from prior experiences, too.
The key thing is that it’s not about you, it’s not an attack on your or your character, it’s about how women feel. I can appreciate why the question feels like rage bait, but you have to also consider that the only reason it feels like rage bait is because so many women feel the way they do and you have to ask why that is. You then have to consider your position, if you would rather that women didn’t feel that way, what are you going to do about it? If anything.
I can also fully understand men getting upset over the implication.
The implication that their unknown behavior makes them potentially dangerous gets them upset to the point that they lash out and show exactly that their unknown behavior is, in fact, dangerous? No, I don’t understand it, and I understand it proves that the question is right. If this makes someone upset, that person is the danger. It is not divisive because it has always been true for everyone who is subject to it, what makes you upset is that it is being pointed out and explained to you why it has always been bad and why this divide has always been there while you pretended that it didn’t exist. I don’t get upset when someone points out the existence of a problem that I already knew was there. Hell, even if I didn’t know it was there, my reaction is oh shit is that an issue what can we do about this, not how dare you show this to me.
lemmy is a network mostly populated by cis white men. like a lot of liberal/leftist spaces populated by cis white men, it’s going to be progressive on the surface; i.e., they oppose right wing shit. say here that you support the right to abortion, immigration or gay marriage, and you’re not going to meet much pushback.
but, as soon as you start criticizing dominant groups (or just, say that they have power over oppressed people), now people yell at you. you can see that here, but also, say that anti-white racism is not a thing, or even just that it’s not comparable to actual racism, and you’ll wonder if you actually logged into reddit by accident.
heck, just criticize people’s behavior as bigoted here and they’ll rip you apart…
Yeah, that tracks. I wonder if the average age being around 40 adds to that equation. I am 40ish myself, but encounter a lot of cis white men in their tweens in left spaces, that seem to be quite reflected im regards to feminist topics.
It is all the LLM bots that are configured to work on Reddit.
I hope it may be a bit of confirmation bias. Most of the people who are not misogynists just move on after reading the meme and don’t comment. I was about to do the same until I saw this comment thread, and now I’m in the gutter of other comment threads here trying to fight the good fight 🤣.
The picking the bear nonsense was sexist ragebait to start with, if you don’t want people pointing that out then don"t post said ragebait.
Boo hoo that men are offended.
Women: I want men to talk to me instead of leaving me out all the time
Also women: lol stop being offended
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“sexism both ways”
Lmfao
That’s always the response… You wanting me to acknowledge the systemic disenfranchisement of women/minorities is sexist/racist.
That or it’s … It’s sexist to not let me have a tantrum about the “male loneliness epidemic”, and somehow the epidemic is because of women.
Maybe it just wasn’t apparent? But flares up in posts like this.
Still. It’s literally mgtow ChatGPT slop, with the caption “hey, you said you chose the bear!” I’m floored/ashamed the response is anything but “wow, Rafael is a jerk.”
Unfortunately no, it’s been like this since I made my first account over 2 yrs ago. It hasn’t really gotten worse but it’s also not getting better. It’s basically why the AFAB cis population of the platform is tiny. Why would women stick around when this stuff is what every post about women turns into…
Yeah… The vast majority of the comments I’ve had rack up a bunch of down votes on this platform have been arguing with misogynists. I think it’s mainly a byproduct of the demographics of lemmy mostly being made up of young dudes working in tech.
It comes and goes depending on if women are speaking up about stuff or if the misogynistic men can forget we’re here
My first real experience on Lemmy, was a thread about men overrunning a women’s tech job fair. And Lemmites seeing nothing wrong with it.
It kinda set the tone.
I don’t understand why this triggers so many men. I think a lot of them just have absolutely no experience talking with women or reading about their interactions with men. Just a total lack of curiosity or interest in what life is like for women.
Men in general have no idea what women have to deal with [from men]. And so many men are fragile and want to turn it around and make themselves the victims. If you are having a hard time befriending women, then you need to look deeper into your actions and how they might be perceived by someone who has to deal with unprovoked messaging, calling, touching, staring, following, etc. Men are the reason women travel in groups to the restroom, or that there is such a thing as a drink cover in a bar, or that there are women only driver options for ride services, etc. etc. You just need to realize that even if the actual percentage of men who are creepers is low, it doesn’t mean that the number of interactions women have with them is not. All it takes is one scary moment for a woman to be put on the defensive for good.
Still though. Even assuming total ignorance, where’s the respect?
Rafael is an abusive ass. It’s clear cut.
Hence I don’t get the responses below… Are others guys really so afraid of the bear meme “perpetuating a toxic message to other women” or whatever that their respect for other human beings goes out the window? Like it’s too dangerous an idea? I’m pretty socially isolated, yet that sounds like fascism to me.
Most of the user base is from Reddit, so no surprise. Ostensibly progressive guys who take criticism of things other men do personally. I’m particularly familiar given I used to be one of them, though I wasn’t on Reddit then.
Two wrongs don’t make one right…
This argument is so dumb. Women are assuming the random man will rape them just because (what?) and men are assuming the women would rather get mauled to death by a bear (likely) then what I think they’re thinking is that they can befriend it or something? It is mildly insulting when someone says to your face “I’d rather be mauled to death than spend a second alone with you”. I’ve never come across this situation in real life however so I think this is a nonsense internet argument intended to drum up division and distract us from making guillotines.
Bears don’t rape women.
You are misunderstanding what women are implying with this meme. It is about probability not pre-determined outcomes. Women are more fearful of the man because they believe there is more chance of being harmed by a random man than a random bear. This neither implies every man will threaten her nor every bear will maul her.
Just entertaining this is true, you DO realize how horrible it is to hear “I think you’re more dangerous than a random bear just for existing”? And this isn’t supposed to give men lasting mental health issues and extreme social anxiety?
I can’t say how it’s going to affect all men, but for me (who is a man) that is not how it affects me. The fact that there exists a lot of mysogonistic men doesn’t reflect on me. I am confident that I’d be one of the men who’d just leave a woman alone if we ever met in the woods, so knowing that there are a lot of men out their who wouldn’t doesn’t get me salty at the women who are fearful of them; but rather, it gets me salty at the shithead men out there who are ultimately the root of the women’s fear.
Right now, you are ultimately expressing your anger towards the hypothetical victim rather getting angry at the hypothetical asshole.
there’s an element too of that in a patriarchal society if you have the position of privilege of existing as a man, it’s not enough to not be dangerous towards women. you have to actively help women be safe
You’re so close, perhaps you chose your words poorly. Actively helping women be safe is, I’ll call it positive misogyny, in that you definitely understand the problem but your solution is still defined by misogyny.
Men don’t need to actively help women be safe, because that still doesn’t provide full agency to women. You, a man, have to actively stop other men from being unsafe. Either through helping each other grow or force if necessary.
I’m impressed with how close you were to the mark. Seriously I think you understand why the patriarchy is bad. I’m just ust helping you, who I assume is another man, grow hopefully
i will word this differently in the future, thank you. the actions i mean are as you describe: confront men on their bullshit
Awwww are your fee fees hurt
Dude you sound so sad. Yes, dudes suck towards women, a lot. Accept it. It’s not a reflection on you personally. But, your reaction is telling (all about ME and MY feelings)
I couldn’t give two shits what some random abusive stranger thinks of me online.
And this isn’t supposed to give men lasting mental health issues and extreme social anxiety?
It’s not like a single instance of abuse by a random would make people care, it’s systematic abuse that does that.
This is more of a general comment though.
Bro. I know you’re not a rapist, but you’re going to have to accept that lots of men are rapists. If you want people to think of men in general as nice people, you need to fight the rapists. Right now you’re not doing that.
This is such a horrific take. “If you don’t want people to hate you, you need to hate yourself”. Is that the message you want to send to people? You should be ashamed of yourself. Everyone deserves an equal chance no matter the gender they were born with. I hope you reconsider your bigoted ways in the future.
Its interesting how you interpreted their premises:
- A lot of men are rapists even though you aren’t.
- Be kind.
- Continue to fight the rapists
As “if you don’t want people to hate you, you need to hate yourself”. I don’t understand where you are getting this take from these three premises, could you further explain?
“If you want people to think of men in general as nice people you need to fight the rapists”. You see no problem with that statement? It assumes men are rapists by default. I do not think of men as rapists by default. That is, by definition, sexism. It says “hey unless you prove that you’re one of the Good Ones I’m going to assume otherwise”. You’re okay with that statement and comfortable with it being applied to other groups?
it assumes men are rapists by default.
No, it assumes that rapists are men by default, which is eminently reasonable.
(At least) a full third of the non-male population reports occurrences of sexual assault (which admittedly isn’t rape) by a man. So I’m not sure why that doesn’t offend you much more than the fact that hardly anyone reports being attacked by a bear.
No where in that statement is it suggested to consider ALL men rapists. Where are you getting this? Fighting “the rapists” means fighting the rapists, not all men? You are interpretting this in a way that goes way beyond what was stated.
Are you claiming there aren’t men that are rapists?
So why wouldn’t you fight against these rapist men? Because they are men and you don’t think of them as rapist by default?
We are specifically calling out rapists men, not all men. You are the one who claims that.
I don’t want any rapists to exist. They should all be eliminated.
You should only hate yourself if you would rape or otherwise harm the woman in the woods.
Everything else is irrelevant.
You can’t argue people into liking you. It doesn’t work like that.
You can argue people into tolerating you, that’s what the queer and civil rights movements have been doing. But once you’re tolerated, arguing doesn’t get you any farther. If you want to be liked, you need to be kind.
Do you think you are being kind in this moment?
Yeah. I’m trying to help you. Your current strategy isn’t making you happy. I want you to be happy. I’m trying to explain how to do that.
“If you don’t want people to hate you, you need to hate yourself”. Is that the message you want to send to people?
Where did they say this?? I see nothing telling anyone to hate themselves. They’re saying to fight rapists and that doing so will give men a better reputation. Please explain what you mean by “need to hate yourself”
@reliv3@lemmy.world said:
[…] but for me (who is a man) that [your comment about women being cautious “giving men lasting mental health issues and extreme social anxiety”] is not how it affects me. The fact that there exists a lot of mysogonistic men doesn’t reflect on me. I am confident that I’d be one of the men who’d just leave a woman alone if we ever met in the woods, so knowing that there are a lot of men out their who wouldn’t doesn’t get me salty at the women who are fearful of them; but rather, it gets me salty at the shithead men out there who are ultimately the root of the women’s fear.
which is a based take
What more should we be doing to fight rapists? It’s likely that rape is already proscribed legally and morally wherever most commenters are from.
Dismantle capitalism. Pedophiles like Trump are using their money to get away with it.
Also, support women who complain about rapists.
I do support women who complain about rapists.
Your first point makes you sound unhinged though - that’s not capitalism that’s just power.
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So, “I know you’re one of the good ones, but you’re going to have to accept that lots of black men are criminals. If you want people to think of black men in general as nice people, you need to fight the criminals. Right now you’re not doing that.” would be an acceptable thing to say to a black person?
Even if statistically the classic “50% 13% racist statistic” is true, it’s still seen as wrong to be scared of black men with no other reason than their skin color, why then is it ok to be scared of black men with no other reason than their gender?
I posit that in both cases generalization is harmful, both to society at large and to those generalized, statistics or not.
Like don’t get me wrong stay safe out there, but also don’t get caught up making generalizations based on demographics, that historically has been a “bad” thing.
Not for nothing, “all men are rapists” is fairly new, it used to be “the hypersexual ne*ro rape beast” during the Jim Crow era.
https://jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/brute/homepage.htm
The “terrible crime” most often mentioned in connection with the black brute was rape, specifically the rape of a white woman. At the beginning of the twentieth century, much of the virulent, anti-black propaganda that found its way into scientific journals, local newspapers, and best-selling novels focused on the stereotype of the black rapist. The claim that black brutes were, in epidemic numbers, raping white women became the public rationalization for the lynching of black people.
Maybe it’s time to drop the “All X does Y” thing after all? I know then it’s harder to sell fear to swaths of people but like, good?
Oh, won’t you think of the men! 🙄
Here’s a short video for you, it’s a compilation of women on a bus just existing in a public space: https://www.tiktok.com/@specere/video/7472932570162924831
Yes, not every man on those busses is being creepy. But if there’s one on every bus that is what women are going to remember. Now imagine a woman who takes the bus regularly dealing with this every day, then being asked if she’d rather encounter a random bear in the woods or a random man in the woods.
She’s encountered random men in public spaces and this is what has happened. No wonder she doesn’t want to encounter them in the woods.Let’s try a quick thought experiment:
Say you’re driving down the road and following all the rules. You come to a gradual stop at a red light, and you’re suddenly hit from behind because the driver behind you wasn’t paying attention.
This accident is not your fault in any way. You did everything right, the other driver fucked up.
But does that mean you can just walk away and everything will be taken care of for you? No, you have to contact insurance companies, arrange for vehicle repairs and alternate transportation until it’s done, notify law enforcement and other agencies under some circumstances, etc.
So why do you have to do anything if it isn’t your fault?
It’s because fault and responsibility are not always the same thing. It sucks, it’s unfair, but it’s just how things work. Sometimes we have to clean up other peoples’ messes.
When it comes to the man or bear question, which is also a thought experiment rather than a personal indictment, it’s not the fault of all men that many women feel the way they do about us. But even for those of us that didn’t cause the problem, it is still our responsibility to acknowledge the lived experiences of others and listen without making it about ourselves.
Enough other men are shitty towards women to make a lot of them sincerely consider whether they would be safer with an average man or average bear. Nobody said anything about you personally or whether they were choosing guaranteed death over time with you.
Empathy is the only way to take meaningful steps toward changing the perception. Invalidating women’s feelings or pretending the pattern doesn’t exist won’t help anyone, including yourself.
Let’s say someone says “I’d rather choose the bear than a black man”, citing their life experience of violence with black men in particular as the reason for this. Should we have empathy for this position? It is their lived experience after all.
My guy. What the fuck. Why would this question give you anxiety? It’s not about you. Why are you taking this so personally it’s giving you anxiety?
how is this being upvoted?? is lemmy really this misogynist?
you DO realize how horrible it is to hear “I think you’re more dangerous than a random bear just for existing”?
Dating men is a minefield. Discarding caution because “it might not be necessary” goes against the point of caution. They feel safer encountering a bear because the bear leaves them alone if left alone. Some men, on the contrary, would actively do something bad even if left alone. The point is not that all or most men are like this. It’s that they can be and assuming that they aren’t is unsafe.
And this isn’t supposed to give men lasting mental health issues and extreme social anxiety?
No?? Strangers not trusting you is perfectly normal. If you think you are owed trust because all women will magically know that you’re trustworthy, you aren’t trustworthy.
you DO realize how horrible it is to hear “I think you’re more dangerous than a random bear just for existing”?
Just about every person is more dangerous than your average bear encounter…
The vast majority of bears that people run into in the wild are black bears, which are mostly harmless.
I as an experienced outdoorsman would much rather stumble across a bear in the deep woods than another lone person, especially in a survival situation. Desperate people are the most dangerous animals by far.
supposed to give men lasting mental health issues and extreme social anxiety?
If this is what gives you extreme social anxiety then you are in serious need of professional help. That sounds like more of a you problem a societal one.
The original question when posed wasn’t really meant to be that way.
But it has been reduced down to a couple words (“man or bear?”) reliant on drawing out prejudices rather than a thought provoking perspective.
Like in this thread alone you have a dozen different interpretations on what it is about or means. So as a result it serves as a confirmation bias for even oppositional views. So even feminists and incels alike feel validated by what is being posed and how people answer.
Vagueness is the playground of the prejudiced and divisive.
Lol, you think interacting with a bear “likely” leads to getting mauled? I’m sorry, but… Do you know literally nothing about bears other than what you’ve seen on dramatized media?
Is this why some people get so upset by this argument? They think bears = death? Jesus Christ people…
And you actually went out of your way to say the argument is dumb?
Have you ever interacted with a bear? Have you ever been within a few feet of one?
They chose a bear. What did they expect?
A bear’s intentions are obvious.
