Oh, do I am reminded of those damned stacks of inkjet printers in some forgotten room in the office, or my cousin’s small collection of cut-rate plastic washing machines in his backyard.
In any system – capitalist or communist – once mass manufacture became normal, a product is expected to last for a certain period of time until it breaks, and whether it could be repaired or not. But right now and in this age where most manufacture of consumer goods is now conducted by one country on this planet, any corporation will want to keep profits and business going, so by consequence with planned obsolescence they reduce the product’s quality or lifetime which will of course force the consumer to replace the product with a new one anywhere from a few years to a few days. And why corporations are increasingly anti-repair by the day, by adding minute deliberate changes in their products in their attempts to defeat what they call “unauthorized” repair.
I still can’t believe how normalized not repairing your own things became in just a period of decades. My grandparents, now deceased, were born in the thirties. Repairing things is just what you did all the way up until their fifth decade, when it started to change. Even they noticed how they just went along with it over time, since technology got past what two former farm kids who grew up without electricity could easily understand.
Intentionally over-complicating a device so that it must be repaired (additional revenue) by a ‘professional’ that they approve of (additional revenue) with their own parts (additional revenue).
You might expect a company that makes easier-to-repair things to retain more customers, but ‘more customers’ is an incentive because it means more profit, but if you can get several more profit more directly by doing these shenanigans, then why wouldn’t unregulated capitalists go in that direction?
Indeed, I know someone who has an early 1980’s Kenmore Microwave, Made in Japan, with a single dial control for the timer and the damn thing is still working in the kitchen.
My grandparents had a microwave so old it had mechanical buttons you push in that would pop out when it was done. It was freaking huge, and so old fashioned it had those red numbers like old clocks or calculators, it even had a turkey setting, as if people want microwaved turkey. Can you imagine someone trying to feed you microwaved turkey for thanksgiving? The thing weighed a ton and people were afraid to be near it while it was running. But it was still working in 2015 or so, after my uncle had inherited it and he finally said he lost interest in seeing how long it would last. The microwave won in the battle of wills, but still found itself in some landfill.
I wonder if anyone has ever talked about how difficult it is to challenge capitalist imperatives while capitalists own all the factories and their supply chains.
Ya… That just won’t work, at least here in the states. Those old appliances were great and lasted forever but they consumed a massive amount of energy, they would never pass federal regulations now a days.
Also fridges from the 50s had a tiny tendency to explode from time to time.
Bold of you to assume those federal regulations still exist
Ummm… They do. Since you know… They sell them… In the US.
1 I’m not really being that serious, 2 even if the regulations vanished; companies are lazy, they wouldn’t just switch production.
I’m sure it’s possible to fix those issues without reducing its lifespan to one day over its warranty.
O God yes. And they have good ones.
The issue is they cheap out on the resistance sensors and put in too many control boards and features into these appliances that amount to jack but sound great on a spec sheet.
Little bit of this, little bit of that.
There was a startup that wanted to build exactly that, a washing machine that would last a lifetime.
I like what they’re going for, but it’s not so much “it will never break” but that it’s easy to swap out the parts that break or become obsolete.
You’re using past-tense, did they fail?
Can’t see anything about where to get one
And the site copyright is 2021
I don’t think they are doing much anymore
That front display it has definitely looks like it would die in a decade so I’m doubtful they achieved their goal. So many failure points.
Every part doesn’t have to last forever if the parts can be replaced…
Washing machine of Theseus
Yes and no. Yes they should build those old patents in a general sense. No they should not follow those patents exactly because they contained things like asbestos and lead.
You can find refurbished used and/or antique appliances too. There are a couple accounts that I follow who have really cool appliances from the 50s and 60s, among other eras - lots of chrome and pastels! I think they will customize ones too, and even look out for specific models or option sets.
Pretty neat!
Will annoyingly also consume the power of a small neighborhood
Consuming electricity is clean, unless you want to blame the consumer for how electricity is generated.
Maybe such old appliances can be upgraded for efficiency without killing them?
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My trusty garage fridge looks almost identical.
My parents have 3, they are older then my parents.
Reliable appliances already exist. They cost 10x what the cheap stuff costs and very, very few people buy them because “why would I get this washing machine for $5000 when I can get this other one with more features for $500?”.
Having looked at many appliances I don’t think it is true. I spent 4x for a high end Bosch that died in 3 years just like the Kitchenaid it replaced. I replaced it with another Bosch and discovered the new model took away buttons and put behind a cloud app. Miele pushes lock in with their own custom detergents for their Dishwashers and Laundry machines. You end up paying more for less reliability now.
I am still considering a Speed Queen which will be $5000 for a set compared to a $1600 LG but have read many stories of lemon Speed Queens. They might be built with large struts and thick stainless steal, but they now all have Chinese manufactured controller boards that are $700 to replace. My Maytag’s controller board was $150.
The cheap models of appliances are now the reliable ones because they are simple. And when they fail they are cheap to repair.
TBF, there are lot of the “10x as expensive” appliances that are absolute garbage, have awful reliability and are very expensive to repair. The “best” would be to buy commercial kitchen gear, but it isn’t pretty enamel colors or designer chic. Of course there are still a few reliable standouts like the typical Kitchen Aid stand mixer, but like you said, a hand mixer can be had for $50, and Kitchen Aids can cost $500+.
Also the sturdier machines are heavier, take up more space in tiny appartments, and consume more power. I was looking for juicers the other day and deciding between an industrial one and a cheap plastic one. THe industrial one was enormous and used 700W, while the cheap one used like 25W. THe industrial one wasnt even that much expensive, like 2-3x the price of the cheap one, but would take up much more space in my kitchen.
FYI: today’s Kitchen Aids are not the beasts of durability of years gone by
I’ve had one for a decade, moderate use, and it works great. Importantly, it is repairable. The company offers many replacement parts and there are aftermarket ones as well.
So much of the world’s problems comes from that if you have one product that 8.99 and the other thats 9.99 everyone will buy the first one without question
Exactly. People paid high prices for high quality appliances back in the 50s and 60s because there was no other option. Now we have choices. So if you want quality appliances, just pay more for them.
People also made more, dollar to dollar, so they could afford a more expensive appliance…
And if they didn’t? Well, we don’t think about them when we think of the idealized appliances of the past.
The only thing is just VEEEERY MINOR gap in purchasing parity of salaries bro
what? real compensation is up
What compensation?
But even then, you never know if you’re paying for higher quality, or you’re just being sold shit at a higher price.
Back in 2000 I bought a pair of North Face shoes, when they were known as being a quality outfitter company. They were amazing shoes and I would replace them about every 3 years… Then around 2012 they had completed their shift to a fashion brand and their shoes barely lasted 6 months, but still cost the same.
Exactly. Am I paying for a brand or the product?
And WiFi.
And AI.
Real ones remember when Panasonic (home appliances) used to be called National.
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And look, there’s Magnetbox and Sorny!
These appliances would cost similar to 60 years ago? You’ll be spending 2-3 months salary on a washing machine or television. We got used to cheap and poor quality - poor repairability devices in the consumer economy.
Yeah, the bummer is that you can pay that much for appliances, but you are paying for extra features, NOT for extra durability and repairability. They simply don’t make them like that anymore.
You can get the long lasting ones too. But they will cost you.
Well in Europe we have Miele brand appliances which are close…
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Linus and Luke from LTT were talking about this the other day, how you can spend like 20-30 grand on a sub-zero or some other fancy brand fridge, and it will last 50 years like appliances used to. But when you sell your house eventually it will add NO value, the buyer is just going to see “great, the house comes with a fridge like it’s supposed to”. So unless you plan to take the fridge with you from house to house and go through the trouble of replacing it with something normal when you do then the economics just don’t work for most people anymore.
I live in a city below sea level and almost every house has foundation issues. At one point I was living in a house that was over 120 years old. It had been through a fire, had no central support beam, and every time the roof had previously been repaired, instead of removing the old one, a new one was just slapped on top, so there were 3 total roofs. It was kind of a miracle (and probably only because of old style lattice work in the frame) that it never collapsed. Anyway, the foundation in that house was beyond fucked to say the least.
Almost the whole time we lived there we kept having problems with our washer over and over. Our landlord would hire a repairman to fix it, they were never quite sure what was wrong, but they would fiddle around with it until they got it working, then a week later it would just stop working again. Eventually our landlord got so fed up they just got rid of the washer and dryer and bought a brand new really fancy stackable washer and dryer set. They were so pissed when not even a week later we started having the same issue.
Eventually we got a repairman out who figured out the problem. The laundry room was an addition that had been a back porch at one point in history so it was even more janky than the rest of the house. The foundation in that room had become so fucked, it was throwing off the sensors all newer washers have. The landlord had to sell the almost brand new washer, and then go out and find a 20+ year old washer to place next to our fancy dryer.
Anyway, the point is, I could see the value in vintage appliances being included in houses where the age of the home itself may interfere with newer technology.
oh shit this is FASCINATING. i’m glad you had a landlord that at least dealt with the problem instead of blaming you after the first couple times.
The washer and dryer was in our lease, but I think they did tell us if the repairman figured out it was our fault then we would be on the hook.
I listened to that segment. If you’re in a position to do so, it makes sense to buy for life and not have to deal with break downs/ ewaste imo. That’s a privileged position to be in though
Honestly, I don’t think not having a fridge is that big of a deal. If someone actually wants the house they will haggle you down for the cost of a fridge and I would be totally fine with that. Hey, I could have bought a $900 fridge and put it in here, I will give you $900 out of the sell. If you don’t want a $900 fridge you can take that money and put it to the fridge you do want.
Even then you’d be dealing with the hassle of moving a heavy, expensive appliance to a new home.
Sure, totally understand why some people wouldn’t. Me personally, if I spent that kind of money for an appliance I expect to take it with me even if I move.
if i could afford a $50K fridge, i’d pay for an insured professional to move it
fair enough, i guess that’s an option with that kinda dough.
How often are you planning on selling a house though? Don’t you plan to live in it forever?
My parents seem to move every 15 years or so, i have no clue what a normal amount is.
I’m on my 3rd home. The first I lived in for 10 years, then sold it when I moved to a different state. The 2nd one, in the new state, I lived in for 2 years before I realized the HOA was shady as hell and it was likely that all the owners were going to be on the hook for paying to replace all the storm drains and roads. I’ve been in the current house for 6 years.
I see at least 1 more in the future to escape the hell hole that is NC.
I’ve
ownedpaid a mortgage on three houses and lived in them an average of seven years. I do plan on owning my next house until I die, though.I think it depends, but most people don’t buy a house planning to live in it forever anymore. More likely you upgrade from renting to owning a small apartment or condo, then you move into a starter home, maybe you get married and sell your home because your partner has a home, and then you decide to have kids and the starter home isn’t really big enough anymore, then you get a new job in another city, etc.
Interesting. In my country most people rent so typically if you can afford to buy or build a house you plan to live in there until you die. Sure sometimes circumstances change but the concept of owninc a starter home is completely alien to me.
In the US it varies a lot. Some places, like NYC or DC you might rent forever and that’s perfectly common. Other places which are not as urban focused, think medium cities that are big but not super dense, you could choose to live down town and rent or buy apartments or you could live in the suburbs or rural country. Some people live in small cities far from any major city and options to rent apartments are rare, you are more likely to rent a small house, live in a mobile home, or you own a house of varying quality.
Here is an example: Let’s say you live in Verdigris Oklahoma, outside of Tulsa. Here is a mobile home for $76k with 112 m^2. Here is a home for $195k with 938 m^2 land and 130 m^2 living space. Median income for Tulsa is $41k with married households having a median income of $99k. Tulsa is a 20 minute drive from Verdigris.
If you then get a job offer in Oklahoma City making more money, Oklahoma City has a median income of $67k with family median incomes being $83k (let’s assume your family is beating the median since you’re moving for this job). Here are a few houses that are in or near Oklahoma City 1 2 3 3 4
Here’s another example. Maybe you have a job on the west side of Richmond Virginia. Richmond has a median income of $64k but you live in Chesterfield Virginia maybe in this town home and have a 15 min commute to work. You get a new job on the north side of Richmond and you’re getting married soon. You decide to sell your place, upgrade, and move closer to your new work so you buy this place.
I like the idea but alas a lot of the products produced & sold back then would be illegal to have as commercial products today.
Something that most people fail to do on their tools and appliances is maintenance. My house is full of cheap appliances that are pushing 15 or so years of life and running great, but they require work. Filters need to be changed on dishwashers and laundry machines, people never check these often enough. For example, most people I know don’t own an air compressor, which means they never fully clean out all the motor killing dust. Computers, vacuum filters, air purifiers, fridge compressors, all these items need to be blasted with air, way more than you can get from a little can of air like IT people love to use.
Get the proper tools to maintain your things, and even the cheap stuff will last a while.
You can’t really do that on a lot of modern appliances, because what fails isn’t user-repairable.
The gas dryer we had from the 50s could be fixed with a screwdriver and a pulse.
The electric dryer we have now that we live somewhere without gas has a $1200 controller board (that probably costs $4 for the manufacturer) that goes out every 2 years, so we end up paying a $250/yr maintenance subscription to get it fixed under the “extended warranty”.
We had a washing machine that “failed”. All that was wrong was the relays/water intake valves stopped recieving a signal. Ended up spending a week and an old raspberry pi making a stupid replacement controller because the washer was still sending signals, they just werent making it to the relays for some reason. i still can’t tell what part of the original boards failed. also i only programmed one cycle and it no longer senses fill rate D= but it does wash clothes reliably assuming the water pressure (and hence fill rate) is relatively stable.
That is a scam. It is easy to program the board to stop working after x seconds. Samsung did that with my washing machine - the control board died couple of months after the warranty expired.
Planned obsolescence or engineered obsolescence if you prefer.
It’s like light bulbs. They had a cartel form that drove DOWN the hours of use so that they would expire after only about 1000 hours of use instead of multiple times longer that some bulbs were getting.
Afaik it’s one of the earliest big scams for that
For the dumbasses who downvoted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartelMuch appreciated
I got a manscaped electric face razor to replace another cheap one that was dying. It was the first electric razor I got that didn’t come with a tiny bottle of mineral oil for lube and even said in the manual that it didn’t need lube.
I bet if I had listened to that BS, it would be dead already, especially because I have had it fail to start with full battery just from the friction of the blades (giving it a tap can get it going, adding lube makes it run noticeably better).
Fucking liars. Let’s see if it lasts any longer than the other ones even with lube.
Cars are the same way, with “lifetime fluid” that should really be replaced at regular intervals. Zero maintenance appliances are absolutely consumer traps.
Yeah, probably a safe assumption that the intended lifetime for those is around the same as the length of the warranty.
I first read electric fence razor and assumed you might be a robot.
Okay but my parents never maintained much and it all lasted a very long time. I think the point still stands. Things nowadays require much more maintenance. Of course maintaining them will make them last longer
I bet their generation did more than you think. People’s willingness to do maintenance themselves as well as ability to DIY has plummeted over the past few decades. The funny part is YouTube shows detailed instructions on how to do it all, even how to become a handyman, and yet we are more reliant on contractors, technicians, and mechanics than ever before.
just a reminder that survivorship bias is a huge thing. There have been shitty products from back then too. Many. We just don’t see them now, because only the few good products have survived. The same happens today.
Its not all planned obsolescence and not all obsolescence is bad. Imagine having a 40 year old fridge that doesn’t cool shit and burn 3 times the energy.
2 tips for good quality products now: end capitalism and spend money on the right products (not just convenience) and the right people to repair them.
A lot of survivorship bias is jsut bias bias.
There have been shitty products from back then too. Many. We just don’t see them now, because only the few good products have survived.
So we built on that knowledge and kept making the good ones as they were and didn’t see how cheap we could make them right? …right?
It’s more complicated than that. It’s literally that sometimes two of the exact same item last for radically different times. It’s not a different design or manufacturing process, just an amorphous series of random factors lining up we call luck.
Mean time between failures is something they do actually measure in manufacturing, and you see interesting results like what hard drive manufacturers do to increase reliability: stress test the drives until the ones destined to fail early fail, and then sell the others.
There are things that can increase reliability, but a lot of the things that make the extreme outliers are just random, and no one documents what they were because they didn’t know it was going not have an effect, good or bad.
Well, sometimes, actually, yes. Unfortunately you have to do the research to figure out if anyone does it right and the people doing it wrong tend to out-marketing spend the good ones.
For example, house came with a garbage disposal. Within 5 years it rusted through, because why would you bother with stainless steel in something that is constantly soaked with water? Did research, didn’t have to spend too much more to get one actually made using stainless steel and that one is still going 15 years later.
Of course sometimes you just don’t have options. Like if you want a microwave, it doesn’t matter what microwave you get from what brand, all of them are just cosmetic variants/brands applied to the exact same microwave made by one company in China.
I remember a video of Linus from LTT going to check out the Sennheiser factory and their high end electro static ($ 19,000 at the time) headset had like a 40% quality fail. Because only the best would be branded as their high end devices.
Most of the ones that didn’t pass were still absolutely fine, just not hitting all the frequencies correctly so they went in the $8000 bin.
Exact same product just some were slightly less performing but still more than useful as a lesser quality product.
Which iirc Linus commented on after initial surprise to see such a high failure rate.
Now that’s a good brand that cares about quality, lesser manufacturers…
and the right people to repair them.
Also, the right to repair them.
7 to 10 is beyond generous by today’s standard.
