Several service members told advocacy groups they felt like pawns in a political game and assignment was unnecessary
California national guards troops and marines deployed to Los Angeles to help restore order after days of protest against the Trump administration have told friends and family members they are deeply unhappy about the assignment and worry their only meaningful role will be as pawns in a political battle they do not want to join.
Three different advocacy organisations representing military families said they had heard from dozens of affected service members who expressed discomfort about being drawn into a domestic policing operation outside their normal field of operations. The groups said they have heard no countervailing opinions.
“The sentiment across the board right now is that deploying military force against our own communities isn’t the kind of national security we signed up for,” said Sarah Streyder of the Secure Families Initiative, which represents the interests of military spouses, children and veterans.
Weird that they aren’t stopping if it makes them feel like the bad guys
They are upset that they are witnessing police tear gas their own community members and civilians exercising their 1st amendment rights, yet soldiers cannot use that same weapon against enemies… what does that say?!? STOP GASSING US! Stop with the rubber bullets! We have right and Americans need to stand up and realize this!
If there are no consumers, there is no capitalism! If all essential workers all don’t show up ONE DAY… we shutdown America! We
THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, mass organized protests across the nation!!!
Sadly there are enough people who agree with it or simply can afford to protest, so too many scabs
If enough people protest, maybe those who can’t afford to protest can at least legitimately say “sorry, there’s a protest in my neighbourhood and I can’t get to work.”
This bullshit is going to absolutely tank military recruitment numbers.
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This. And that’s a good thing
It would be really bad if the only people left in the military were trump stooges.
Military will lose tons of public support for turning on us. All those military holidays? They won’t be a thing to celebrate.
And also boost retirements of career members who manage and operate the military. Which will be okay with the MAGA Nazis, because eventually they’ll have an entire military of followers who will happily kill ANYONE for HitlerPig.
My Dad was a helicopter pilot in the Army, during the late 50s, and wanted to do that for his entire life. Then Vietnam heated up, and he was going to train pilots to go to over there, and might have ended up there himself. Nobody could explain to him why this was happening, and he didn’t want to train young men (like himself) to go off and die for a war that nobody could explain, so he quit flying, retired from the military, and got into the insurance game.
I would imagine that a lot of career military are questioning their career paths.
I would imagine that a lot of career military are questioning their career paths.
Absolutely.
Well, they should be scared if they’re following illegal orders. You’re not a pawn, you’re a US soldier. Act like it.
marines, not soldiers. soldiers are army
Lol! Thanks for the correction. I don’t know which term includes them all, but that’s the one I should’ve said instead.
I wonder if any of them have seen No Escape?
good start, recognizing that you ARE pawns. Always were. Next step: being strong enough to quit and deal with the court martial.
Next step: being strong enough to quit and deal with the court martial.
Or mutiny, that’s always nice in a revolution.
being strong enough to
quitrefuse unlawful orders and use your own common sense and basic decency to resolve conflicts in the field and deal with the court martial.if they had decency and basic sense they would not have volunteered in the first place. The trick now is to grow what little incipient hatred they have into a consciousness and recognition that they are being abused because of their class.
edit: the initial reply was harsh - those who need help after getting sucked in are the decent ones - they are “waking up.” I may hate the military and the dicks who keep supporting it, but do want compassion for the ones who realized they were tricked into joining as children and need to get the heck out.
Goddamn, you really hate the military, huh?
I think it is, in the modern era, completely used to bolster corporate profits, destroy lives, spread violent hegemony and exploit the working class all over. So. Yeah.
Our US nation is not the “world police” and the members who wish to leave need help and support in getting out. While they acknowledge they were actually and really brainwashed through professional propagandist workflows.
The ones that rock Punisher logos and “Terrorist hunting permits” and “Don’t tread on me” flags on their F250s need to be ignored at all points in the day. They are already too far gone.
Military recruitment is actually really insidious. They actively target low income areas with the promise of paying for college. They find people who they can convince, maybe rightly so, that they have no other option if they want to leave their impoverished life. People who live in a place where there are no jobs. Kids who are living in houses that struggle to put food on the table.
Whether it’s right or wrong. A lot of those soldiers may genuinely feel like they had no other choice but to sign up.
A lot of these soldiers are going to be late teens and early 20s. Essentially kids.
For sure! Help those simple minded kids get out when they get the slightest smell of “this ain’t right.”
Remind them all that THIS is not worth a lifetime of regret even if it does mean you can preboard your delta flight back to FL to see your grandkids.
Send them to https://girightshotline.org/
But don’t say they don’t have decency because the ‘volunteered.’ The military is exploiting them too.
I suppose that was indeed a little harsh and reactionary of me. They are, indeed, working class people. I may not respect their choice, or the system that exploits them, and the ones that “push back” can go fuck themselves.
But you are right. Compassion for those “waking up” is important!
Thanks for the link!
Military recruitment is actually really insidious. They actively target low income areas
There is a reason the military (in multiple countries) has been called the “employer of last resort”.
They’re always recruiting, and will take almost anyone who can’t find any other job.
They should be troubled. They are breaking their oath on the constitution.
On the other hand, they could easily turn and end tyranny before it really sets in.
You say “easily,” but I doubt it appears so easy, because disobeying the order first starts with you violating the UCMJ and paying for it. Only then can you fight and say hey, the order was unlawful. But you’re doing that from military jail. It’s an uphill battle and there’s nothing easy about it.
I imagine the mindset is go, stand around with a shield, don’t murk protestors, and try to just wait this shit out.
Plus, for the Marines, they were living in 29 Palms beforehand, so it’s practically a vacation.
Pretty sure they were at Camp Pendleton.
From the article:
Earlier this week, he also activated 700 marines from the Twentynine Palms base two hours’ drive to the east, describing Los Angeles as a “trash heap” that was in danger of burning to the ground.
Huh, aight guess I missed that.
I just read this on another site. So who the fuck really knows what is going on?
The Pentagon also deployed 700 U.S. Marines from Camp Pendleton, with a military convoy heading from Twentynine Palms toward the City of Angels.
The fuck? Best guess I have is that maybe they are grabbing guys from both Pendleton and Twentynine Palms, either that or maybe the convoy from Twentynine Palms is National Guard and they are moving shit.
2/7 is based on 29 Palms. They may have stopped at Pendleton on the way. 29 Palms is a Marine Corps base only.
What if everyone does it en masse though?
It’d be awesome. But how do you get a whole unit openly discussing insubordination? I love the idea, but it’s just not practical, and not in the short amount of time. The order came down within the last week? It was probably go go go since then.
It’s not insubordination, it’s their duty.
Yeah, I just think you’ve oversimplified it all. Like I said, I love the idea, but it’s a huge ask, and it would require a lot of coordination over a period of time. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that sending Marines to the border, and sending them to protests in LA, is causing some kind of disenfranchisement amongst the enlisted, but a circle of dudes throwing rocks at a nalgene complaining about how this is bullshit is a far cry from an organized mutiny, essentially.
And how do you propose this be coordinated?
Talk to each other? They’re all posted to the same place. By ‘everyone’, I meant all the deployed troops.
Well that’s kind of a given, I was looking for something more practical. Getting that many people on the same page about something that could easily have catastrophic consequences for all of them is not a trivial task.
That’s beyond my knowledge of the intricacies of the US military. I’m just asking if it’s possible based on the principal that there’s strength in unity.
That’s beyond my knowledge of the intricacies of the US military. I’m just asking if it’s possible based on the principle that there’s strength in unity.
An unpaid vacation with little food.
They’re Marines, I can tell you from experience, they are unfortunately used to it.
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They should be troubled.
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A judge ruled the troops can remain there for now.
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They knew what they signed up for.
They were mostly 18 and recruited from high school. The military propaganda mill is intense. No, they didn’t.
These kids have been playing military propaganda games since they were literal children, so yeah, bolstering your point here.
I did the same thing and everybody enlisting knows what their role is.
So did I. Most people who sign up don’t realize that we are seldom the good guys.
Well, part of the soldierization process is brainwashing. They don’t exactly hide it.
Happens before that. Our society worships the military. It’s in our movies and TV shows. It’s on display at every sport stadium. It’s for sale on every toy aisle. It’s how you drag yourself out of poverty and make something with your life.
18 year olds sign up to be heroes because we’ve told them since childhood that’s what soldiers are. They’re convinced that they’ll be good guys.
deploying military force against our own communities isn’t the kind of national security we signed up for
Then refuse those illegal orders and stand down.
Or deploy on orders, then stand with the protestors against ICE
In what ways are you able and going to support troops who do that to then face court martial? Are you a lawyer willing to go pro bono? Are you willing to house the ones who are discharged, or later released from prison, with few to no job prospects? Do you already or are you planning to donate to service member advocacy groups?
If troops could feel sufficiently supported by the rest of the community when the military’s judicial hammer hangs above their head, it may help them gather the courage to do the thing you’re suggesting they do.
Most troops signed up to do a job with good benefits and gud-nuff pay and hopefully learn some skills, make lifelong friends, and maybe do some interesting or adventurous things in the process. Few of them are very financially well-set and “standing down” from orders they personally deem illegal could ruin their life. Big decision for 18-25 y/o’s to be making and glib comments like “just stand down” kind of gloss over the total psychology of the situation.
https://girightshotline.org/en/military-knowledge-base/conscientious-objection-discharge/
There are programs in place to provide help to troops considering Conscientious Objection. Every single law is up to personal interpretation, so I don’t know why you feel the need to emphasize it here. When I was asked to join the military during Bush II, I refused and am proud of that decision. Probably would have made my father proud. Probably would have gotten a lot of respect in my community. Probably would have helped pay for a college degree I wouldn’t actually get a job with. But fuck traveling half way across the planet to kill civilians to protect an oil company’s profits. If that was an easy decision for me at that age, not violating the rights your own countrymen should be even easier.
I never knew about this. I actually hope all our troops know about this also.
The ACLU seems like it should also cover this sort of thing.
It is I believe
I just checked their website. They need to add a Conscientious Objection section to make that more explicit.
Any military member who is court marshaled has a JAG representing them, just like there is a JAG prosecuting them. A system that gives you someone with far more time to deal with your case than a public defender, and even some private attorneys.
Like the movie A Few Good Men, Tom Cruise is a JAG
Do we need to have our commitment to them in writing in the presence of a lawyer in order for them to do the right thing and not follow illegal orders and threaten fellow Americans?
They took an oath.
That has nothing to do with our support.
That being said, the support of the public tends to be more consistent than the support of the leadership we find ourselves with in recent history. That’s made obvious by all the people getting help from others via GoFundMe type donations to cover their medical bills or simply for doing the right thing and being punished for it.
Do we need to have our commitment to them in writing in the presence of a lawyer in order for them to do the right thing and not follow illegal orders and threaten fellow Americans?
No idea how to get the point across effectively, but some general assurance of a soft landing on/from the side for which they’re putting their personal future at risk would probably be pretty helpful. The more ostracized and hated they feel in these early stages would probably just push them toward the other side, based on a rough risk-reward analysis.
If anyone is actually depending on those sworn/affirmed oaths to keep the troops on their side, then they’re living in a naive fantasy world. Those oaths are beautiful in their intent, but crumble pretty quickly in the harsh reality of viable livelihood and expected future compensation. Sorry, but I’m cynical and in my view loyalty is most easily purchased via material guarantees than ideology. Within limits, of course, and there’s different thresholds of tolerance toward unpalatable orders vs living conditions for everyone.
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Yeah, a lot of people are all talk but actually chickens out when you tell them to practice what they preach or help in some way to the cause. I was arguing in an anarchist community why it is a bad idea to fire the first shot and kill soldiers and police, because it makes it look bad on the protestors and it will finally provide reason for the government to invoke the insurrection act. Unsurprisingly, anarchists know little of the practical reality and are too trigger happy baying for blood. When I dared one to go to California and shoot the authorities if they believe that Trump and co. broke the social contract, unsurprisingly he/she made up excuses and chickened out. Said going about on social media and targeting far right leaders is just as effective. Right, as if bullying Trump on social media will make him quit the White House lol.
It reminds me why i am not fully on board with anarchism despite having inherent and deep disdain on authority and hierarchy. Sorry my anarchist friends, but you are just as fantasists as any ideologues. I don’t completely condemn violence when it comes to it, but you don’t get the final sympathy when you break the promise of peaceful demonstrations and kill the authorities first. I mean, the world has sympathy on Syrian rebels, because Assad’s forces fired on peaceful demonstrators first. Many people actually soured on the French Revolution at the time, when The Terror started with indiscriminate executions of many individuals deemed enemies of the revolution. Conflicts are won on public relations as well.
Well said
A lot of people may or may not be the protesters in the streets, but don’t feel like incriminating themselves on a public forum for internet clout if they are. This isn’t the War Thunder forums.
One of leftist, especially for anarchists, core beliefs is praxis or putting into practice what you preach. I can see where you are coming from, but the interlocutor was literally calling for violence and for himself to raise an army. But when I told him why won’t he do what he says, he basically backed out. That’s not praxis lol.
As much as i hate what Trump is doing, I don’t expect any enlisted man to refuse orders to go somewhere. The legality of that order is debatable, but following it does not cause any immediate harm. It’s not a good risk to take.
Refusal to follow orders will come when the order is so clearly illegal that there can be no question, and when following that order is something that can’t be undone. An order to fire into the crowd, for example.
Of course, no such order will be given. I assume we have all seen Andor, yes?
If you haven’t seen andor what are you doing with your life
Not living for TV.
What’s the takeaway from Andor in this context?The Empire is fascist and comes for all including its loyal servants
That’s been the takeaway from Star Wars since A New Hope.
There was a scene involving some vey angry, but peaceful protesters surrounding a government building. A small team of police was ordered into the crowd. Not to attack, just to patrol, to open a little corridor so people could pass. But that was six guys in riot gear pushing their way through the people.
Even in the best possible circumstances, that’s gonna cause a little trouble, and these were not the best possible circumstances. Fruit was thrown. Maybe a bottle or two. The police are tense. The people are tense.
And a government agent, working for the guy who ordered the cops out there, shot one of them. The cops reacted defensively, and struck at the crowd, trying to get to safety. The crowd fought back. Things quickly got out of hand.
And the stormtroopers were standing by, waiting for the word.
It was a setup. An incident was forced to happen. It might have happened even without the sniper. Just force the police into the crowd, and sooner or later, someone will do something stupid.
On the same way, the NG troops might be deliberately pressed into a position where they legitimately think they are defending themselves, but no single order will seem like “crossing the line” to them. Stand here. Hold the line. Push the crowd out of this area.
I hope it doesn’t happen. But the metaphor of boiling the frog is apt.
Some don’t like Star Wars or any Sci-fi. Others like fascism and hate things that say fascism is bad.
Not necessarily mutually exclusive. Always room for a little overlap in that Venn diagram.
Yeah one of my family members fits both
I agree, I think there’s clear limits. This isn’t like Russia where they were being told they were being sent to a training exercise, this is an event where everyone being deployed knew exactly the reason and are able to be kept up to date by sources that don’t include their superiors. Being deployed doesn’t mean anything other than they’re getting a bigger paycheck each, and the legality of a domestic deployment for the purpose of crowd control is debatable. The real test of these men will be whether they take the life of a civilian.
There’s a lot of doomers who will base current events off of a TV show they watched, but there is no media in existence nor any historical event that mirrors these circumstances. There are non political guardrails, such as societal conventions, that will realistically play a much bigger role in the coming conflict than people think.
One thing is very clear however: The price of true change is blood.
No historical event that mirrors these circumstances?? Are you joking?
Maybe they are specifically talking about the event of an orange russian agent rampaging in the US government. This exact thing has not happened yet. Talking about the broad circumstances though, this is probably the most common historical event since humans exist.
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Trump is essentially playing by the Fascist Dictatorship For Dummies playbook.
Try watching Winter on Fire on Netflix. It documents Ukraine overthrowing their dictator. It wasn’t a clean process. But hopefully the ending will be the same, with our dictator also fleeing back to Russia.
The Great Orange Baboon’s (TGOB) parade is this Saturday. Lots of protests are going to happen on Saturday specifically because of this, and many other things. TGOB has repeatedly alluded to using armed forces against protesters on Saturday.
People are going to die on Saturday.
I really hope this event will be a good opportunity to escalate things. I am shocked that most US citizens have just been watching as their formerly democratic country (which they supposedly are so proud of) was turned into a fascist dictatorship. I guess the lack of organisation is a big factor and now may be a good time to finally show the fascists that the people are able to fight back. It will cost lives and I feel a little bad that I indirectly wish for those deaths by wishing for escalation, but I believe they wont be in vain and could prevent millions of deaths.
Right?
This isn’t complicated. You either choose to obey an illegal order and threaten/attack other American citizens, or you don’t.
Clearly they have generally chosen, so far, to break the law and betray their fellow Americans.
This isn’t complicated. You either choose to obey an illegal order and threaten/attack other American citizens, or you don’t.
Would you be willing to risk ten years in prison that a military judge will agree that an order to go stand somewhere is illegal?
In theory, the next administration would pardon them. In theory.
Or to put it another way, do you expect our enlisted men and women to uphold the high moral virtues of honor, self sacrifice, and protection of innocents?
After seeing what horrors American soldiers are capable of, I’m not holding my breath.
Curious to know what horrors you’ve seen?
There was the whole thing in Guantanamo Bay. And the awful treatment of civilians in Afghanistan. And in Iraq. And we can’t forget the Vietnam war.
I think the guy you’re talking to is a duck, but he’s not all wrong.
Yeah, those are good examples. I wasn’t trying to challenge him, but was genuinely curious to know if he’d personally seen shit.
There’s far too many to name, but the first things that come to mind are Collateral Murder, Haditha Massacre, and literally anytime the US military has been involved in the Gazan genocide of the past year.
Again, it’s one thing to expect them to reject orders they know are illegal, such as firing on civilians. It’s another thing entirely to expect them to reject orders the legality of which may be a supreme court case next week.
Yeah, nobody here knows what they are talking about. “I won’t go, I refuse to go.” Cool, here come the MPs, you go straight to jail. This shit happened quick. It wasn’t like these units had time to talk and maybe try to form a unified front. They got mobilized quick, and so any choice you make, you’re doing it on your own.
And so is it right to disobey? Maybe. Is it easy? Absolutely not, and to suggest that is foolish, but easy to do from behind a desk.
And so I think they’ll do what they must. They’ll show up, they’ll stand in a line, and they’ll hope they don’t need to do any more than that. And it goes unsaid that there’s some morons who want to beat on people, but they’re the 10%. The rest of them don’t want to be there.
I was just following orders.
Also even if there are 10% who just want to beat people, are the other “good guys” stopping them? One of these cowardly cunts shot a reporter point blank and the ones areund him were more like: good job than: wtf, you can’t do that. Go lick their boots and thank them for their great service.
It seems we are in agreement then, the troops are self-interested rational actors; all of the supposed virtues are propaganda.
But I think there is a moral imperative that says “do not obey immoral orders”, and that imperative does not come with a clause that says “unless there is a pending court case”.
But I think there is a moral imperative that says “do not obey immoral orders”
Is it immoral to get on a plane, and go sleep on the floor somewhere?
No, plane rides and sleepy time are not immoral in my opinion :)
There’s probably a good argument about plane emissions and climate change tho
Think for themselves? That’s not what they signed up for!
It’s a nice idea but the military makes it really hard to do that.
BONUS ARMY
BONUS ARMY
BONUS ARMY
BONUS ARMY
BONUS ARMY
Good. They should be troubled. This is utterly fucked.
Can’t wait for the Nürnberger defense
Pawns of political games feel like pawns of political game? No fucking way, at this rate, they will get self-conscience faster than they predict it for ai.
