Actually I looked up the real story of Johnny Appleseed and he was more about making hard cider and selling land. 🙃
You can’t take the seed of a tasty apple, plant it and expect the tree to have similarly tasting apples. If you want to duplicate a tree, you need to take a twig and graft it on top of an existing tree.
Source: MinuteEarth on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIajCqcvTg8)
[Edit: Previously, before I remembered that this video exists, I couldn’t remember the correct word for “grafting”. Hence Sidyctism II.’s response.
I love that grafting is real and it works. It always seems like straight scifi to me.
The real marvels are the ones where they graft apples, oranges, etc together. Expensive as hell and they don’t survive as long though.
There’s an artist who did that, and created a series of Trees of 40 Fruit!
I think the trick is that it works better the more closely related the trees are. These use only stone fruits.
Grafting?
Take a small branch of a tree you like, splice it using a technique, take a small young tree of same type but different variety, splice it, attach branch of variety you like, seal. Nurture it, and the branch uses the donor tree to pull up nutrients and water, and the branch then grows into a whole new tree. It’s cloning, but grafting helps it move faster and without as much risk.
They were responding to the original version of my comment where I asked what the technique was called.
Grafting?
Well, you can just buy apple trees from a nursery, it’s what farmers do.
Yes but that’s because the nursery has already grafted the branches of a known-to-be-tasty cultivar onto that tree before putting it up for sale.
Yeah, I’d just rather pay someone who knows what they’re doing for it rather than fuck it up over and over again on my own
They’re also soil, water and other conditions. Doubt a tree planted on a city is going to have the nutrients to give you tasty fruits
There are fruit trees everywhere in LA, they’re just mostly in private yards.
Enter Andernach – the edible town
There are plenty of fruit trees around towns here(eastern Europe).
And they do produce fruit. Pollution around major roads and things like dumpsters are a problem, but the trees are perfectly capable of producing tasty fruit.
When grafting, do you need to remove any of the original branches? Or will the tree grow two different types of apples? Or some kind of hybrid?
Any branches you don’t remove will still be the original tree. You can have a single tree that yields multiple varieties of apples.
Costco was selling fruit trees with multiple different fruits in it a few years ago. One cherry tree has 4 different cherries in it.
If I had a hard i would have bought one and put it in my yard
johnny appleseed would also show up right after native americans were run off from their native orchards and declare those sapling riparian orchards his.
not a coincidence as his business was selling sour apple saplings to new immigrants.
johnny appleseed was a typical christian businessman using the chaos of genocide as a place to put his wallet and the marketing of a pot on his head to get notice.
and the US destroyed the last of the orchards that he claimed as his creation during Prohibition.
because usa.
Apparently apples were primarily used for making booze right from the start of the country, which does indeed make Johnny Appleseed’s story feel rather different.
Washington was a big fan of apple jack, which is what you get when apple cider is freeze distilled.
Much of the US is experiencing prime weather for apple jack actually, though it’s a little late to get a mash started in time for this weekend’s weather.
Probably not primarily booze, but vinegar. Prior to refrigeration and canning, food preservation was massively important. This meant salting, smoking or pickling. Apples that weren’t good for eating were important as a source for producing vinegar.
It was for cider. They drank a staggering amount of beer, cider and rum on a daily basis in the early 1800’s. Cider consumption per capita in the was around 15 gallons/year. They drank even more beer and rum. They were also drinking around 5 gallons/year of distilled spirits.
Most people were what we would classify as functional alcoholics today.
It should be noted that a lot of the beer they drank was ‘small beer’ with 1-2% alcohol, which you’d have to really try to get drunk off of and was more of a nutritional source than anything. Liquid bread.
15 gallons per year comes out to about 6 pints per week. Not exactly staggering amounts, but combined with the spirits (and I’m sure they were drinking other stuff as well), it would definitely qualify for alcoholism today.
Primarily for cider. Of which you can make vinegar, but that was not the primary reason. It was cider, which was the most popular drink in colonial/early US.
If you know what brewing with apples and not having access to modern equipment, sanitation and yeast is like then I highly doubt they were in short supply of vinegar.
Yeah, that’s… that’s what they’re saying.
No they are saying that it was intentionally made into vinegar as it’s primary purpose. That just simply isn’t true, it’s primary purpose was hard cider, vinegar was a byproduct of failed batches that few people would be in short supply of.
For alcohol, just deny it oxygen once it just gets going. You don’t have to prevent exposure to acetobacter.
162 comments and not one about lemon stealing whores.
Not sure if I’m disappointed or just old.
Yes, porn released in 2006 on DVD and uploaded to the internet in 2007 … You are surely very old …
I mean, it probably makes them at least 30. Im almost 30 and it feels quite old.
I was working as a private investigator in Hawaii between 1980 and 1988.
Tv show as well I suppose
Yup, this whole ownership thing is totally fubar!
(and yes, I do prefer to own things too, but there could be a healthy middle ground)
private, public, and personal property are three different concepts. most anarcho-communists have no objection at all to personal property
BuT My tOoThBrUsH!!!
that why billionaires are good 🧠
Yes, I’m just saying before the ‘they’re taking your stuff!’ people come out 😉
saaame lol. it’s amazing how certain political positions are like “you know how civilization is fundamentally structured around violence? what if… we just… didn’t?”
and then people are like “THEY’RE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY OUR STRUCTURAL VIOLENCE, GET THEM!!!”
There are literally zero leftist ideologies who have a problem with personal property.
Correct, it was a land grab scam based on the laws of the time.
IIRC, if he planted trees it was then his land because he was using it, so he could then sell it for actual money. This was after the military had killed or chased out the natives who lived on it, of course.
IIRC
You don’t recall correctly, and I have no idea where you got that information. Appleseed actually was a successful businessman who bought some land, owning about 1200 acres (~5 km2), but by all accounts he was a genuinely good person, and I’ve never heard what you’re saying (and not substantiating) that he did.
Ah but you see, their comment has the message of “capitalism bad”, so it doesn’t really matter if what they wrote is true.
I’d go even further and say that this is more generic than capitalism/anticapitalism wish fulfillment. It’s a desire to speak truth to power but without any of the effort or sincere curiosity to learn what that truth is. To have that truth condensed onto a smaller and smaller spoon until you don’t even realize you’re being spoonfed at all is the ideal.
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And you really think that at 62 I’m gonna go track down a historical factoid to satisfy the gatekeeping of a LEMMY sub?
Well hey, as a wise person once said:
Too damn many stupid people in this world.
Good citation. That guy is a genius.
He’s also taking enough gabbapentin to stun a horse so his memory isn’t super great.
Good cook though.
“I’m too old to care if what I say is true” what age do I get to just start saying stuff and act like other people are the problem when they call me out on pulling shit out of my ass and presenting it as fact?
Well, back in my 20s a coworker forgave me for leaning Democrat because “if you’re a Republican in your 20s you have no heart. If you’re a Democrat in your 30s you have no brain.”
So, I’d say never. Reality matters at all ages. Well, until you have deep dementia. At that point, enjoy the invisible angels that help you use the restroom. You need all the help you can get. (Source: my mom on the occasions of caring for my grandmother)
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This is a dumb take.
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Yes, capitalism bad, but uhhhhh
You’ll get it if you survive to my age.
OK boomer
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popcorn
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If it smells like shit in one place, it’s probably shit. If it smells like shit everywhere, it’s time to check your shoe.
Citation [21]“Johnny Appleseed, Orchardist,” prepared by the staff of the Public Library of Fort Wayne and Allen Couth, November 1952, page 26
Here, I took the trouble for you. He was not, by any accounts, a good business man.
Please avoid spreading disinformation. This isn’t facebook.
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What’s the goal here? Agitate people on line for fun?
You’re not arguing in good faith. You tell people that you are in your sixties and disabled, as if that’s excuse for your behavior. You add no context or sources. What’re you looking to get out of engaging in a public forum? What does lemmy.world get you that Facebook does not?
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I thought he made his name by basically being a consultant and helping others plant their trees. The law at the time was you had to grow X number of apple trees and the land was yours. That was because apple trees take multiple years to grow so it proved you were taking care of the land for multiple years.
“Consulatant”: “Hey guys here’s a way to lay claim to government land taken from the natives. Just plant a bunch of crabapple seeds like I did and you can claim to be “working the land”, too.”
I’m not buying any good intentions here, sorry.
Did I say good intentions? Consultants get paid for their work.
And I’m sure you think this means something.
There are no good capitalists comrade.
Cool story bro
Yeah, Appleseed would generally move ahead of pioneers and start nurseries on land he thought would be settled. It wasn’t some land shakedown scam like the original comment is implying; it was a very useful service that Appleseed would even forego payment for to those who couldn’t afford it. Apples were a dietary staple on the frontier, often used for bartering, and sometimes, as you said, you even legally needed an orchard.
Well it was useful for the pioneers, however you have to acknowledge the massive genocide that was committed to make that land “available” to those same “pioneers”.
Apples were a dietary staple in so much as they could be brewed into cider and the resulting mash was then used to bulk up food stocks as feed for invasive farm animals.
Your comments don’t seem to address any of this. Why is that?
Your comments don’t seem to address any of this. Why is that?
Because that’s not at all what the original comment was about. Why am I expected to offer up a treatise on the consequences of apples on the American frontier in order to debunk someone purporting – unsubstantiated and evidently with no regard for the truth – that Appleseed was running “a land grab scam based on the laws of the time”?
Edit: I guess since the original comment mentioned it, I could mention the obvious that, no shit, this was stolen land just like effectively every parcel of US land. But what good does this do our discussion of Appleseed’s character as an alleged scam artist? It’s generally understood that Appleseed had a very good relationship with the Native Americans he encountered, and yes, sometimes you can be an overall well-meaning person while advancing a deeply unethical system.
Thank you for the further context. The original tone of the comment I replied to could have been construed as support.
Dude, who knows where I saw it but Honest Opinion says he’s a useful idiot and you’re saying he’s a successful businessman who bought land, completely ignoring the whole homestead laws of the day.
I’m too old and cynical to buy “he was a good person” in the US during that time frame. Sorry, not gonna happen.
more like johnny crappleseed amirite?
Sorry for the YouTube link, if anyone can find it hosted elsewhere let me know I’ll update my post.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=aD_Tyj-wbC4
Johnny never really profited. By all accounts he was likely neurodivergent and Apple Trees were his special interest. His labor and efforts to educate others was leveraged by others to snatch land up and proof of improvement to the land for homesteading.
The US government was absolutely at fault for the genocide of indigenous peoples. But Johnny was at worse a useful idiot and at best a roving horticulturist who wasn’t very good at owning land.
Useful idiot or not, the fact is, according to The Technician at least, he was a successful businessman, so somebody is wrong here.
I’m too old and cynical to believe that it wasn’t a scam, ND or not, and that doesn’t absolve him from complicity.
Do you have any sources that support your argument?
C’mon man, he’s already established that he’s old! Once you reach a certain age, facts don’t matter, just fee-fees.
Probably, but I don’t care enough to look them up.
Factoids aren’t my special interest any more since I became disabled.
Then why are you caring enough to continue being a nuisance?
Either you have something of substance to say on the matter, or you shut up and listen what people that have can tell you, arrogant old man.
I’m both easily entertained and easily amused.
And you guys are apparently so thin-skinned you can’t help being reactive little bunnies.
Let me elaborate, because your ego-driven brain didn’t register what i said.
You’re not laughing at my expense, you’re laughing while shitting your own pants. I pointed that out, and now you’re saying that you’re feeling amused because of how thin-skinned i am.
The only thing i feel, is distaste and resentment towards your inability to accept the fact that you’re wrong at something as minor, your pathetic attempts to heal your wounded ego after, and your supposed tendency to make yourself feel good at the expense of others.
The last one is especially ironic considering that you seem to be far left.
You’ll go about spouting things as if they are facts, and when questioned you simply hand-wave them away as if checks comments “being old” and “being disabled” are in any way supporting your point.
You sound exactly like my MAGA in-laws.
I can see you don’t come from a very smart family then.
At some point you’ll realize that not every little thing you say needs a citation because some kid on the internet gets his panties in a twist.
Calm down, buddy, you’re gonna pop a blood vessel.
Ah, ad hominem attacks because you can’t counter anyone’s points.
I see my maga boomer comment was spot on.
If you aren’t going to find sources to backup your nonsense then please just keep it to yourself.
No.
Alright well no one wants to hear it so idk what you hope to accomplish.
If you made public fruit trees, someone would try to pick them clean and sell it at a fruit stand 20 miles away.
Yeah I think the only way around that would be to plant so many trees that the fruit is basically worthless. Probably wouldn’t work in places with high population density
Rotting fruit is also a massive problem :) One of my relative had this HUGE fucking pear tree. When it hit pear season, they were begging people to come and take all they could. They would beg food pantries to organize, come and pick.
Have pear tree, can confirm. I used to fill my dumpster twice with rotten fallen pears. I figured out a new tactic though: let them fall, then leave the back gate open so the urban deer can come eat them.
Canning, freezing, salting, curing, drying, baking … Aaaaaaaaa there are still more!
In the Republic, Plato proposed that any citizen could eat fruit from any tree so long as they were sitting underneath the tree that bore the fruit.
By having a society with a culture that encourages empathy
This happens in low trust societies with scarce resources and even scarcer empathy as the result. Also known as “that’s why we cant’ have nice things”. However, not only it’s absolutely not universal, I don’t believe it’s even the majority
This is true and has led to my new system for evaluating economic systems, what does it do with antisocial people.
Capitalism is interesting in that it actually has a plan for them. Let them be greedy little fucks and the system works for a while. Then they fuck everything up and the system collapses, either in a minor correction every couple of years or into fascism.
I would love for something like socialism or communism to work, but there’s this 1% that would pick the trees clean to better their own lot.
I don’t have any answer, but I have come to the conclusion that every economic and social system should only be considered viable if there’s a reasonable and compelling solution for what to do with the guy that wants to pick the fruit tree clean.
the anarchist solution is to abolish property, meaning picking the fruit tree clean wouldn’t actually give you anything besides a bunch of rotting fruit and others will probably get angry and stop giving you the stuff they make
Then no one has fruit. There is a non-zero percent of the population who would pick the trees clean for that reason alone.
Anarchy, like capitalism, works best when all the actors are rational. People are not rational.
Then let’s get rid of money.
The reason we don’t do it today is because fruits would fall on the ground and people would complain it gets dirty. As stupid as that.
City planners in the 60s favored male trees for this reason. Then air pollution and a warming climate, mixed with all that extra pollen, gave rise to a huge increase in seasonal allergies in urban areas.
If you’ve ever walked through a spot with female ginkgo trees that are fruiting you’ll understand why. There’s way too many to eat and they’re somehow sticky and slippery at the same time
Yeah, I’ve got a persimmon tree and pecan tree, all the good stuff gets eaten by the squirrels, what’s falls just makes a rotten mess.
Not just dirty, but the fruit falls on the ground which attracts bugs, rats, etc. that eat the fallen fruit.
NTA. Your park, your rules
When I lived in the city, we caught people trespassing all the time stealing our fruit off our trees.
They would walk up our private driveway, and walk on our path near our front door, then load BAGS full and leave. I called them out as thief a few times, but those Mother F@$@ people just give a smug look back. These people were Pure evil. So happy to move to the country.
Before getting off notoriously racist Nextdoor, I did see a few folks complaining about this, they couldn’t harvest their own fruit crops because homeless folks would just come grab it all, usually before it was ripe enough to eat. This kicked off a big battle over who deserved the fruit more. Arguments that would have been better directed at the political leaders here who refuse to provide enough resources for the homeless. When we have to debate whether people can keep the fruit of their own trees, but we aren’t building shelters or allocating food at the macro level, then we have fallen deep in to the libertarian trap.
It’s people with Mercedes and BMW that steal from our trees, not homeless.
It’s pretty incredible, at least in the areas in the US where i have lived, to see who feels entitled to things and who does not.
They didn’t get rich by paying their fair shair…
Did you ever try peeing on them?
I imagine they walk too fast.
Your Johnny Appleseed comment reminded me of my favorite movie musical, Paint Your Wagon (1969) with Clint Eastwood and Lee Marvin. And, yes, they both sing!
Elizabeth: Did you know that the Fenty’s had an apple farm back in Pennsylvania?
Ben Rumson: Apple jack, huh?
Mr. Fenty: No, sir, we did not make apple jack.
Ben Rumson: Then, what did you grow the apples for?
Mr. Fenty: Mr. Rumson, do you think that everything that comes out of the earth should be used to make liquor?
Ben Rumson: Whenever possible, yes.
Gonna paint our wagon
gonna paint it good
We ain’t braggin’
We’re gonna coat that wood!Gonna paint your wagon
Gonna paint it fiiine
Gonna use oil-based paint
Cause the wood is pīíîine
Ponderoooooosa pine
Get the falling fruit app and you’ll be able to find fruit trees in your area that are available for picking.
In my city, olives are PROLIFIC and I’m still eating last year’s loved that I picked and brined
Hahahaha I had a look and it lists the dumpster out back of Aldi near me.
" Dumpster (edible) Season January - December"
A long time ago I visited Athens in January, it was relatively warm, but those oranges weren’t sour as they suppose to be, they were bitter, which I actually love. They are amazing at giving you this jolt of energy when you walk the mountains.
Only practical issue, is that unpicked fruit falls and makes a mess. but I don’t think it is a big issue, as we already tend to deal with leaf foliage falling in the fall, and no one complains about that. there is also the concept of botanical sexism which has been fucking everyone with allergies for decades. So I will 100% be in favour of using fruiting trees in urban areas.
Look at Valencia, they put orange trees in the streets. and it is a beloved Valencian institution.
We do have fruit trees in my country and it’s even normal for people that live around parks to plant them. Funny enough I’ve never seen a homeless person taking a fruit, always families.
