They will also delete any comments that complain about AI at all, even though there is no rule against it.
/–edit–/
After second look, that’s not entirely true, but they definitely have a trigger finger for it and leave plenty of other “off-topic” comments.
Considering the amount of posts deleted, it should have just been locked instead of nuking comments with a negative view of AI
Here’s the thread in the screenshot:
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/43426671/18476015
Also, here you can see other’s seem to think this was an attempt to silence dissent (though, I don’t think that this coming from drag is a great point for it):
https://lemmy.ca/post/43313594
/–/
Just look at this completely insane comment from an instance admin:
Locking this thread. I think it’d be good to add some civility-related rules to the sidebar. As folks know, this community has a lot of mods, and I don’t want to make too many of such decisions unilaterally, so to any of the other /c/fuck_ai mods who want to be involved in that discussion, please DM me. Worst case, we’ll set up a place to talk through the specific language. But if I don’t hear anything, I’ll probably just add something to the sidebar.
In the meantime, quit it with the direct attacks on other users. If you can’t make your point civilly, make it elsewhere.
I’d also like to thank db0 for dropping in to speak for the dbzer0 instance.
This may be a mistake. But I’m going to make an attempt at good faith discussion.
I am 1000% anti bougie AI. And would be a proud Luddite, marching into the data centers with a hammer to smash the servers and power distribution. AI used to displace, exclude, or oppress people. Or AI that is a detriment to the environment. That is the problem.
Or is it this community stance that all AI regardless of what it is or what it does is somehow bad. Say if you could run your own natural language AI assistant efficiently on a piece of hardware that you own. To help you stay organized or assist with simple verbal tasks. Is that also bad? Because otherwise everything @Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com said seems pretty reasonable.
@Eldritch More than one way to be a luddite https://sightlessscribbles.com/posts/6593/
Not in the historical sense. When I use it, I mean it in the sense of the actual luddites. Who are not against automation, machine, or the automated looms they smashed. They were against the wealthy using tools to steal their livelihood from them and cut them out. In that sense this modern day machine learning stuff is exactly analogous. And that is the reference from which my usage should be understood.
The meaning of things absolutely can change over time with culture. And indeed the wealthy have tried to redefine and portray the luddites as simply being anti-technology and not anti-wealthy. Which they were not
Also know. My acceptance of machine learning/ai is not an Embrace of or defense of tech bros crypto bros or any other sort of bros. If it’s not clear already I think those people should not exist and my general position in response to them while it may be reactionary is a solid fuck the AI bros. Fuck they’re unethical harvesting and trying to use it against us. They 100% are problematic and should not be a part of this equation. We as a society should never have left such a class of people exist in the first place.
Here’s my response to their points:
- That’s an opinion, not a fact. And while I agree that in many circumstances there are plenty of reactionary responses, it does not get anywhere close to 100%.
- Irrelevant to the point.
- You’re conflating an “anti-AI movement” with just not liking AI.
- I never made any claims about banning AI or even fighting against it, really. Not sure why you’re ascribing that to me, and it doesn’t provide any argument to the main claim that “disliking AI is always from right-wing capitalism”.
- While I get your overall point here and mostly agree that AI is ‘just a tool’, the rest of your point is based on banning, which is not part of the discussion. Also, it’s a pretty false equivalent argument, but I assume you’re not expecting it to be a 1:1 comparison, just trying to make the point that it’s just a tool and should not be labeled as inherently bad.
- Once again, you’re conflating an “anti-AI movement” with just not liking AI. I don’t know if there’ some big coordinated “anti-AI movement” that makes that argument in particular and I’ve somehow never heard of it or seen any evidence of, but it seems to me you’ve created a fake, absurd strawman.
- That’s great and helps obviate one of my main issues with AI.
In total, you’ve made zero arguments for the logic that any sentiment of disliking AI should be met with hostility and all comes from a source of “right-wing liberals”. All I see is unfounded attempts of vilifying people who simply disagree with you by shoving a label onto them.
Personally, I can see some use for AI in very specific cases, and it still needs to be babied and the result double checked. But yeah, AI being mostly controlled by big corporations is a major part of the AI problem.
The first point i s a fact not an opinion. Example. I am an anarchist, and that makes you what? It makes you nothing. You are you and who or what I decide to be shouldn’t and generally doesn’t directly impact that. Now let’s say you had a bad experience with an anarchist. And as a result you have chosen to be anti anarchist. That is a reaction, and by definition reactionary. That’s all it really means. Nothing nefarious Etc.
Point two. I absolutely see it from a leftist point of view. But yes that’s not going to hold true for everyone even if I wish it did.
With point three. And most of the rest. I think they were trying to express their understanding and seek clarification on your part much as I have. What IS anti AI. Is it purely reactionary and without thought. Or is it more considered, focused on the dangers posed by authoritarians and fascists empowered by those tools. I’m leaning towards thinking its generally the latter. However it seems one or both of you might be talking passed the other. I doubt you disagree as much as you think you might.
Your argument is that having an opinion on something is by definition reactionary? That makes no sense.
You’re reading the entire discussion wrong. My entire point is that they are actually calling people who show literally any dislike in AI a “right wing neoliberal”, and that is just flat-out wrong.
I’m not talking past anyone. I was trying to discuss that point in particular and no one wanted to explain the logic behind it. (Which makes sense considering it’s an insane take in the first place.)
There is no universe where I would even come close to agreeing with that completely mental attitude.
No not in an overtly negative sense. I think all of us are reactionary to an extent and that it’s inescapable. Myself for instance despite being a lefty. I am very anti-authoritarian. As such anti-leninist. I have a very negative reaction anytime I’m around anyone who would identify themselves in terms of leninism or adjacency. It’s well justified.
Now say for instance anyone posting from a .ml domain. If I just automatically down voted them on sight without considering their arguments Etc that is very negative reactionarily. Because the ml domain servers were some of the first ones. Many people who do not share that ideology ended up on those servers. Therefore I cannot assume that they all espouse that ideology.
Think of it in terms of poison versus allergy. Your body’s reaction to a poison is often very Justified because of the life-threatening nature. Even though it is a reaction. Your body’s reaction to an allergy however is extremely different. The allergy is generally to something that ultimately would be benign to you. But your body sort of freaks out if that makes sense.
And I don’t deny that I could be reading it wrong. Because I haven’t really read the whole thing. I’ve just seen your side and the image snippet of what they posted. Not the whole conversation. But I do know how easy it is for people to talk past each other. Become offended and then reactionarily recalcitrant.
No. To put it very simply, having an opinion about something is not reactionary. It seems you are distilling down the concept of “reactionary” too much, and by that definition any human interaction is “reactionary” which makes it lose any meaning and then becomes a useless term.
You really don’t need to see any more than what’s provided to see how clear it is that I’m not talking past anyone, considering how insane the take is from the start.
But, here’s an overview:
- People made a ridiculous claim.
- I disagreed saying that it’s wrong to lump people together like that.
- They doubled down without any logic or arguments.
- I requested an explanation.
- The admin responded for them with this list, which clearly has no foundation in facts or reality and didn’t even really address the main point. And also continued to make preposterous assumptions.
It may be my ASD, perhaps I didn’t explain clearly. Let’s try an absurdist example. I have a thing here. I will not tell you it’s name or describe it to you. What is your opinion of this “thing”? Is it the best of it’s kind of thing? The worst? Maybe it’s just average. Perhaps I’m holding a literal piece of shit. You can’t know. So can you form any sort if concrete opinion about it, without having anything to react to? Logic would say no. Now if I showed it to you and let you react to it and form an opinion about it. Is that a bad thing? No. Of course not. Now what if you used your reaction/opinion of this specific thing to judge all future remotely similar things without consideration? Could that be a negative? Absolutely.
Having a reaction is normal and human. Humans are reactionary by necessity/nature. As is using those reactions as assistance in future decisions. Nothing wrong with any of that right. The problem creeps up when we let the reactions/opinions control us. And honestly, so far talking to you I haven’t gotten any sense of problematic reactionary nature. 🤷♂️ But I think we probably could both acknowledge that there are some attitudes around this topic that are on many sides. I mean after all that was kind of my whole point for even posting here. Just to understand if this was just a reactionary community that was against all machine learning and AI just for the sake of it. Or if it was more focused on the current negative Tech bro b*******. And so far I’m thinking it’s more the latter.
No, I’m certain I understand what you’re trying to say. It’s an overly distilled idea of the term “reactionary” to be “any kind of reaction”. You’re describing having a “reaction” in the sense of responding to information or stimulus, but that’s not what “reactionary” means.
It means being excessively predisposed to having a negative reaction, or to immediately jump to a negative reaction to some sort of change. It’s specifically negative in its definition. That’s why I say it’s an opinion, because it’s pushing a specific characterization that having any negative opinion of AI means you are merely acting based on an initial negative reaction, possibly or even likely based on a resistance to change, rather than having an opinion based on a real consideration of the idea and the circumstances around it.
News Flash!
AI fan says deranged arguments made by another AI fan are “pretty reasonable”.
In other news water is wet and the sun is hot.
That’s pretty reductionist and rude. It’s the same kind of shitty attitude that I’m calling them out for, and then you’re just doing the same thing here.
Yep I would never really describe myself a fan of any sort of tool. That would be like describing oneself as a fan of hammers, or pencils. They’re very useful tools. But I’m not sure I’m a fan of them like in a general concept sense LOL.
It’s all about the application. A pencil can be used to inspire and express oneself, or oppress. I would be a fan of the former but not of the latter. A hammer can be used to build shelter for the needy, or to murder. Again I would be a fan of the former but not the latter. But not a fan of pencils or hammers themselves it really is kind of a silly argument.
That is like saying that DDT can be used to exterminate malaria-carrying mosquitoes, therefore it should be unregulated and widely accessible and anyone saying otherwise is a ratlicker.
Not at all. Again I literally said I would happily go Luddite on the data centers of the bougie wealthy that would use a tool like artificial intelligence to harm or oppress people and the environment. That’s literally a form of Regulation against the negative impacts. If a tool can exist without the negative impacts. Then where is the problem?
If a tool can exist without the negative impacts.
If.
The problem (at least one of the problems) is the assumption that such an AI tool can exist without negative impacts. I am convinced that it can’t, because I’m witnessing the negative impacts in real time as the intelligence and competence of students at the university I work at declines year over year, to the point where some of them can’t even take a multiple choice test or write a dozen lines of code without the assistance of a chatbot.
Can AI tools have massively positive impacts? Absolutely. So can nuclear power, and we’ve done a remarkable job (so far) of not foisting a ton of refined plutonium upon whichever trust fund baby techbro grifter promises to save the world if they are given a billion dollars to build a death star.
Ethical AI cannot exist in this world, and the world where it can is a fantasy.
I should clarify: I am 100% in favor of nuclear energy and technology, and part of the reason is that the modern nuclear industry is so heavily regulated and safety-conscious. If it presented the same callous attitude as AI techbros and corporations, my views would shift immediately.
People cannot exist without negative impact. Therefore by that logic we shouldn’t exist. I don’t think you or I would agree with that though.
There are groups literally training machine learning models currently on material with consent. How is that unethical? Models intend to provide to everyone democratizing access. How is that unethical? If I was going to draw out a storyboard for an animation that I plan to make myself. If I decided instead to use this ethically created and trained model to generate storyboard visualizations. How is that unethical? These are serious questions not rhetorical.
And just to make myself well clear. Fuck google, fuck microsoft, fuck apple, fuck musk, fuck zuck, fuck Altman, and of course fuck every smarmy grifting little Tech bro.
Thank you for the validation. I’ve been really depressed lately with all the problems I’ve had with my government and my workplace dumping me and just everything else, and the hostility I had been getting from some sides of Lemmy was really exacerbating things. I also want to reiterate my point that some Lemmings don’t get which is that propaganda is still propaganda even if the views and message are both morally correct; it was the use of AI as an imitation of an honest human messenger that I considered “disinfo” or at the very least disingenuous. A lot of other Lemmings also thought my gripe was singularly with how AI art steals (“pirates” as one critic put it) from human artists to make its images, which is not the particular condemnation I was making in that case. Again, I really appreciate the support.
I do think the comment was somewhat instigative, but I don’t agree with how it was handled. I think it was an overreaction and that admin’s behavior elsewhere gives that a significant amount of validation.
The db0 post was a crosspost that itself was a Reddit mirror, and upon further investigation that Reddit post was also a crosspost with the Reddit watermark and the profile silhouette already overlaid on it. The db0 admin was several layers removed from involvement with its creation (and probably several more layers than we can directly deduce), and they had not yet acknowledged that it was AI generated. They had a hand in spreading disingenuousness in the fediverse, knowingly or unknowingly, which was the contradiction with their other mod role that I was pointing out. You can’t be both anti-disinfo and pro-AI as a conduit for messaging in media (unless you at the absolute very least include a disclosure about usage of the latter).
I don’t disagree with you, but more importantly I don’t think that being a little bit instigative should be met with the treatment you received.
$5 says they used an LLM to make that response
So checks notes people who are against capitalist corporate Generative AI LLM’s because they’re just thieving all and sundry and ignoring any laws that might stop them are checks notes pro-capitalism Alt-Right supporters who… Checks notes a third time support Trump and all the capitalist companies bolstering his presidency in order to prevent regulations of Generative AI LLM’s.
Did I get that right?
Did I get that right?
No.
Ugh, that’s disappointing. The screendumped list of arguments that “leftists are per definition pro-AI” is reductive and cherrypicked. I guess they can get into the sea with the rest of the “AI” bros.
To be perfectly clear, I don’t think the copyright system is anywhere near perfect, especially not the way it has been expanded to benefit corporations rather than actual creators. But it is really the only available legal protection against the gross ethical infringement on human artistry that the “AI” corpos have committed to tran their models.
I’m as black and red as they come — as well as an artist and arts teacher — and that litany of BS arguments does not represent me in the least. I would and have made art without certainty of compensation. That doesn’t make my art or anyone else’s up for grabs to create piss poor replacements for our skill and craft.
“GenAI” is not a threat to human creativity in itself— it only reproduces lowest common denominator results from the material it’s trained upon. But the fact that indiscriminate morons actually think those statistically miscalculated songs, texts or images are as good as what people make? That’s the real existential crisis.
I completely share your sentiments. Especially about copyright. It’s a really shitty and fucked up system, but it’s the only tool available for people to use for protection.
For AI, it’s important to repudiate all of the bad uses of AI so that we can distill out any possible good uses for it.
In terms of “AI”, I find the scare quotes important because we absolutely do not have actual AI, only a misleading hype phrase to sell a miserably underperforming product. I’m with Ted Chiang that what we do have is applied statistics.
But I agree that there are reasonable, constructive uses. Primarily in, yes, statistics and language research, but that’s not where we see the technology making its most hyped inroads. Probably because they’re neither sexy or profitable enough to return the investments that have gone into developing these contraptions.
The most infuriating thing to me is that the companies behind are willing to not just steal creatives’ work in the mad dash for profitability, but also diminish the standing of our crafts and raze our already limited fields of income to do so.
And then some tw—t on an online forum decides that “”“AI”“” is the required tool for a socialist revolution? Excuse me while I go punch a wall.
Getting reports over content in different instances. -_-
If someone comes here pushing AI slop then yeah I’m not opposed to whipping out the banhammer, but I don’t really care what folks are posting elsewhere, and I’d rather not see Fuck AI become focused on drama in other communities.
Up or downvote as you see fit, but please don’t use the report button as an ‘extra big-ass downvote!’
When an instance admin is pushing an “AI or else” attitude, I consider that relevant. Though, it does have a significant drama element to it. If that’s still not acceptable in spite of apparent relevance, just let me know and I’ll excuse myself.
I don’t have an issue with the topic you posted in-and-of-iteself. It’s not like we have clear-cut rules here beyond the name of the community, to which absolutely it’s relevant.
What bugs me is how heated people are getting over an incident that’s not even in this community. I’m not going to take mod action here over posts in another community, and it seems silly/petty that the conversation about it here is generating so many user reports.
And I mean, look at my own post history - I get heated about shit too. I get it. We -self included- need to just take a fuckin’ chill pill sometimes.
Up or downvote as you see fit, but please don’t use the report button as an ‘extra big-ass downvote!’
What am I supposed to do when somebody says something I don’t like online?!
That shit needs to be taken down ASAP, chop chop, champ!
Point 7 is telling.
;tldr they ban anti-AI because they’re in the AI game.
That implies they profit from it. I doubt that’s the case.
Yeah the horde isnt a paid thing
Yep, lmao. It was well written and made some points, then the advertisement came and all credibility disappeared.
It was well written and made some points
Gonna have to disagree with you on both parts of that.
I didn’t say they were good or bad points, just points. Compared to other arguments I’ve seen, it was written better than most. Could have been AI generated, though.
Well, there was an implication that they were good points, though I can see now that was unintentional.
Consider how the phrase “you’ve got a point” is often used to describe a valid point worth considering. I would consider “a valid point worth considering” a worthy definition of “a good point.”
seize means of production is funny af, any ai thats opensource controlled by the average person will never compete with corporate resources, or rich ppl, we arent seizing anything, training our replacements we wont be able to use the top tier models well be priced out hard
What do we get, mediocre art, there is already so much art out there that I get an exestential crisis about not being able to read all the books I want to read before I die. Forget tv and movies, I dont need ai generation ruining my feeds, making it harder to find books or animations. This is the most frustrating thing, getting into blender and animation just for every hashtag result being filled with ai. Took me forever to find ppl to follow in the sea of ai trash. You know its not ai when it appeals to the eyes for more than 5 seconds.
Do you happen to have any evidence at all that they “delete any comments that complain about AI”? Because it seems unlikely, given that the only thing you came up with to support that statement is a comment expressing opinions about AI with which you presumably disagree.
I’ve blocked the instance at this point, but that comment thread was on yepowertrippinbastards in response to a thread that got practically nuked.
Here’s the thread: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/43418415
Although the removed comments are not showing up in the moderation log, I see that your tireless devotion to the topic over the past 24 hours has provided us with at least one screencap of what seems to be one of the deleted comments. It was pretty low-quality, mildly insulting, and not worth thinking about for more than the 5 seconds its author did. Anyway good luck with your crusade.
Since I don’t think it would be right to assume you’re just stupid, the only explanation for mischaracterizing me is that it’s intentional in order to demean me and make it seem like you have some sort of valid reason for it.
You’re making some big assumptions on the intentions behind my actions. Apparently, to you, if you respond when you get a notification because people reply to your comments, that means a “tireless devotion”. I came across a post calling out the moderation actions of a thread I was a part of and commented on that, then shortly after I realized any meaningful discussion was never going to happen and I blocked the instance, I then come across a post on “fuck_AI” and thought I had a very relevant experience to post here. And now I am on a “crusade”.
Well, it’s a good thing you only have intentions of being an asshole, because the alternative would require being pretty damn stupid.
… I then come across a post on “fuck_AI”
For a moment you had me going there, but no, it really does say OP beside your username.
Yes, I came across another post on this community and remembered it existed. After having a very recent experience that is relevant to the community, in that an instance admin is pushing an “AI or else” attitude, I thought it would be something people would be interested to hear about.
You’re making me second guess that your intention was to be an asshole. But, now that I think of it, it could be both!
I’m banned from a lot of dbzer0 for the sin of downvoting AI slop
wait, you can’t have been banned from there from just downvoting slop…
According to modlogs that’s the case
Based on the screenshot, they were mostly banned from GenAI communities.
Which seems like a rational response, because they don’t want GenAI images in their feed, and now those communities won’t be in their feed.(edit- maybe not lol, I should learn more about activitypub)
As much as a downvote feels like a “fuck you” button, it’s not really productive to downvote a community’s content on principle. That’s what the block button is for.
now those communities won’t be in their feed.
Banning a user does not remove that community’s content from their feed.
it’s not really productive to downvote a community’s content on principle. That’s what the block button is for.
Definitely, provided that’s what actually happened.
I would agree that it’s a rational response as a way to protect the community from that kind of behavior.
Banning a user does not remove that community’s content from their feed.
Huh. I don’t know why I assumed a ban worked both ways. My bad!
No big. There’s a lot of idiosyncrasies to Lemmy that are unintuitive. I wouldn’t expect everyone to be familiar with all of them.
AI doesn’t work without the availability of highly scalable compute, such as AWS or Azure. “Means of production” is a questionable concept when applied to digital things, since there isn’t scarcity, and “goods” can be infinitely copied once produced. If anything, encouraging usage of AI in its current form increases our dependence on large corporations and the infrastructure that only they can build and subsidize.
I thought that point was rather questionably argued.
You can run that shit locally if you want to shell out hundreds or thousands of dollars for a high end GPU, but I agree with your overall point.
Well that’s disappointing
this pretty much solidifies my belief that the dbzero0 instance is a grassroots left wing qanon Russian troll farm that’s desperately attempting to divide us further.
been blocking any dbzero user as they make themselves obvious.
“We’re consistent in being anti-copyright, from all companies and corprations.”
“Wow, psyop much? Weirdos, having moral consistency.”
I hear OpenAI is pretty anti-copyright as well. Weird how you agree on that.
Nah, most of 'em are okay on any topic that’s not directly related to genAI. It’s just that their takes on this one issue are completely abysmal.
That’s a pretty narrow view. I joined db0 for piracy discussion. Not everyone subscribes to all aspects of the instance next to their username.
like I said, as long as they “make themselves obvious”.
you seem like a level headed user, however there have been some folks from your instance that tend to instigate. those are the ones I block.
deleted by creator
As an Anarcho-Syndicalist (basically as far left as you can possibly get), multiple things can be simultaneously true:
- Private property is theft as is copyright
- Art should be publically funded
- Capitalism is fundamentally evil
- AI is theft
- Tech bros are bootlickers
AI is a fundamentally reactionary tool, it does not serve the worker and does little more than serve the capitalist. It feeds off of real work that real workers do so that capitalists can claim that they can do work like real workers. However they cannot, only a true worker can make art and music. Art and music comes from what fundamentally makes us human, thats why AI and Capitalists cannot make art.
DOWN TO REACTION, DOWN TO THE DECEIVERS, DOWN TO THE TYRANTS
Hey I would appreciate it if you didn’t use all caps like trump, makes me want to not be associated with you even as a sympathetic left-liberal.
SORRY, DIDN’T HEAR YOU.
Man wants to be in all caps, let him be in all caps. You do you and then appreciate that other people are different and still good people.
ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME
I think a key point here is that none of the admins or mods of dbz0 have claimed its real art, or that something else is lesser art, as far as I can see. I may be completely wrong, and I’ll amend that claim if so.
However they cannot, only a true worker can make art and music. Art and music comes from what fundamentally makes us human, thats why AI and Capitalists cannot make art.
Indeed. My favorite musicians are in fact human. Art is not made for money, art is made to express something, something intangible. I think the moment people get into a “who would pay for this” instantly lose the argument, as art should not be profit focused.
I don’t sing in the shower because I think it’ll be a smash hit on TikTok or whatever, I do it because its fun to sing in the shower.
Wow that’s silly of them, they can as well add the label Luddite.
I use AI at work and it does an mediocre/acceptable job when I find the right prompt.
The technology is still in its infancy and we still need to spend decades learning how to get something out of it.
